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Topic: ATA Stallion issue (Read 2386 times)
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Shawnda
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Its the time of year again for me to start thinking of what to put in the Stallion issue. I always like to go to the membership and ask for ideas and what you would like to see in the magazine, and what we (the editors) can do to improve it. So, keeping in mind that the topic is stallions, please feel free to post any ideas here or e-mail me at Shawndan@msn.com If any of you wish to write articles to contribute, please feel free to do so as well. Put your Trakehner thinking caps on.............. Shawnda Nadeau, editor ATA Stallion Issue 
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Suzette
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Well, what I would like to see is some history of the stallion families in THIS country. We always get this type of info from the German magazine, but not of our own here. I mean, to follow some of the oldest (the original imports) stallion lines and the succeeding generations. This would highlight the success of the breed in America.
Or, another choice would be to talk about the stallions that nobody ever hears anything about, and what they are doing. Maybe that would drum up some interest in them, and also serve to encourage the owners to be more active in the organization.
Yet another subject would be to talk about what owning/standing a stallion is really all about? I mean, most members don't really understand the work, money, time that stallion owners invest in the project, so maybe something from that perspective might be of interest to the general membership.
Good luck! The magazine is a real asset to the organization, and we all know how much work it is! Thanks for taking it on!
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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Just curios
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2002, 03:34:55 AM » |
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Hi guys,
I'm wondering about a comment from Suzette. I totally understand her point that it would be of greatest interest to see some ATA related stories instead of German news in the magazine, but when I was asked to write for the magazine, I heard that German news, family stories and bloodline backgrounds were greatly appreciated and that's why I got involved in the first place. Was that a wrong impression? If so, I'm sorry for not paying more attention to the ATA bloodlines, but it's kind of hard from here in Germany without closer conections to the owners of these horses.
I agree that it would be wonderful if the ATA would cover more of the Polsih bloodlines through the NATA horses, there are some rather significant and outstanding lines (e.g. Poprad) int he books now and it would be nice to read more about them.
Let me know what you think!
Greetings to you all 
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Sovereign Farm
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For the most part, the general membership really, really like reading about the German lines, at least in my experience. I find it to be an incredible took in helping me learn more about the old bloodlines and where our horses come from. Maren, you do an EXCELLENT job with all of your research and I really hope you will continue.
I also think that Kari had a great idea about hearing from the "professional handlers" and seeing what they look for, how they prepare the colts to be the best they can, etc. Maybe if we all work together, we can get some input from different areas of the States and maybe a short interview with someone in Germany (would be interesting to see what they look for and see how it compares to what we look for). Here is what I think we should do... I think that either myself or Aerron could do an interview with the person who handled our stallion, Willy Arts. He's in Ca and has presented a lot of the stallions out our way... Sinatra, Feuertanzer, Stravinsky, Paramoure (ours!), Savant, etc. He also presents for several other registries and has a working farm with probably at least 6-10 stallions in training at any given time. There are also several people in the MidWest that handle stallions... Maybe Glory could get in on this? or one of you guys that know them could do an interview. How about the east coast? Any stallion handlers over there??
Shawnda, what do you think of all of this? Good idea, bad idea? Do you think there would be space for an article with maybe 2-4 short interviews on the subject from a few different sources??
Heather
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Shawnda
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I think thats a great idea Heather, and per usual you hit the subject right on the nose. We would love to have more articles about ATA stallions, and their babies, but unfortunately very few people are willing to write them for us. People such as Maren are rather rare here. So if some of you out there wish to contribute, please do ! As for an article on the trainers and handlers, again GREAT ! So if you or someone else is willing to do the interviews and then write the article, kudo's to you. The person who has been handling the most stallions at the central inspections in the past few years is Eberhart Bisenthal (spelling ?), so you may wish to contact him as well. Good luck to all of you, and keep in touch.
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Sovereign Farm
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I do agree with you Renee, but where are these people? Not on the subject really, but my opinion anyhow .... Do they have horses out there competing, showing? If they do, then hopefully we DO hear about them. Although they may not have lots of money for advertising, etc, there are outlets where they can get there name out there. The magazine always does a "From the Show Circuits" section in each issue. Pictures are printed if they are sent along with the info. If they have nice babies, they can put them in the Mare/Foal profiles for a nominal fee. I have rarely not printed an article that was sent to me for publication in the Performance Issue. The only reason that something "might" not get printed is for space reasons. If you or anyone has a good story about your breeding operations, what you've accomplished, or how you've accomplished it (no matter the scale), I encourage you to contact an editor to see if there is room in an issue. I personally LOVE hearing about the "small" guys (being one myself, of course!). The only exception I can see is if someone were to use this as a huge advertising spot for their farm. You can tell a story, though, without making it one. Mostly, I'm just waiting for someone to "write" these articles. We get pretty busy with each issue (along with everyday farm life, family life and all that) and it's not fair to expect anyone to track down small breeders so we can report on them.
Wow! I have no idea where that came from but I feel better for having said it! Back to the issue at hand....
So, I think if a couple of us can agree to interview someone, we can put it all together and make an article. I will commit to an interview with Willy (if he agrees to it). Any takers for Eberhard? Maybe Glory? Anyone else know him well enough to pick his brain? Any more ideas for another handler? Maren, do you think you can interview someone in Germany?? We can all come up with a general list of questions so that we have continuity between interviews. Where to start? Kari... what particulars are you looking for??
This is so exciting when everyone gets involved!!!
Heather
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Those sound like great ideas. How about if we nudge Maren to interview Lars Gehrman or Hella Kunzt and/or other members of the inspection team? Lets hear about what is really looked for, and not just another recitation of the breed standard (noble in type, ta da ta da). How about stallion presentation GAFFS (what you should REALLY NOT do...), which would be not without a certain humorous aspect?
I wonder about things like whether we are paying attention to substance in these horses, and does it seem the strength of the topline, loin connection, and hindquarters are not emphasized enough? It seems like the newer trend is in favor of a lot of leg movement without the strength in the back to bring it through. What about bloodlines? Is it right to expect one stallion to have 7 approved sons? Are there trendy lines for approval (male and female)? Or are you at an advantage with more diverse breeding? What about TB influence? Seems like the trend in many cases is toward lighter and lighter frames. What about size? In the USA, are we still looking for the big bruisers who are in fashion with so many riders? Or is the trend for breeding stock scaling down?
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Equine Connection
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I second Tannenwald's suggestion to interview members of the German inspection team. I believe this would be most interesting and informative - as you said, to really find out what they are looking for. You've raised some very important points that IMO are critical to the current and future breeding of our Trakehner horses in the U.S. And, from what I've seen and heard in Europe, over the past few years, they have begun to move away from breeding for such large horses, as that brings on a whole other set of problems for horse and rider.
With regard to the smaller operation (whether a stallion owner and/or a breeder), yes, it's most important they get those performance results and pictures circulated for people to see. I know in our case, as a service to our clients, we coordinated the ads for the new kids for the foal profile issue. This is definitely a super way to promote a stallion's (and mare's) offspring. And it's certainly worth the "nominal" fee. And websites are another excellent and fairly cost-effective way to spread the word. So yes, I would agree that there are multiple avenues to get the word out, and the ATA magazine/newsletter are two very good sources.
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Warm Regards,
Renee & Happy Hour
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Maren
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Suzette: I didn't want to make you feel uncomfortable, I really think you're right about featuring ATA related background stories.
Heather: excellent idea with the topic of "what to look for in stallions", I'd be happy to work on that and contribute to that story.
Shwanda: give me a deadline, and I'll give you an interview. Let me suggest Gisela Gunia. She is a member of the German AND American inspection commette, so has seen both (Hella is not a member in Germany) and Lars Gehrmann is usually too busy this time of year with selections for NMS.
With regards to the very good points Ingrid brought up:
1.) substance in horses: is a tricky thing, since after all, the Trakehner is a refined horse and should always look that way. However, "lighness" should not necessarily be seen in the foundation. This is where I think you are ahead of Germany. I liked the foundations in Saint Louis much better than in NMS last fall! You also have better hooves on your horses. Here, breeders tend to forget that a good hoove is 100% essential to ride a horse. Since many breeders are still older generations, they are happy when a mare brings home a ribbon from the zillionst in hand show, but I only care about RIDING and that leaves the hoove issue a delicate one. It is a fact that Trakehners tend to have narrow feet, this is a trait that can be followed back for centuries and I personally made the experience that these hooves (BTW, almost always EXCELLENT hard quality) last a horse life lonf without problems. Two lines over here are pretty commonly eqipped with these narrow feet (NOT IN GENERAL!!!), but both are also the most competitive ones: Habicht and Anduc.
It will always be a difficult decision of "how much incorrectness can we accept". Let me give you two examples:
In 1996, Neumünster saw the bay stallions Sabary, by Sixtus out of Shynoon by Highnoon, a brilliant young colt, excellent conformation, movement to die for (which also includes the WALK!!) and the best jumper of the days. However, his feet probably had the size of my hand. He was approved for 20 mares and the commission made it pretty clear that he would have been the champion if he had better feet. Sabary had his 20 mares, one foal better than the next, excellent feet, mostly influenced from the mares he was corssed with. His first daughters were shown at inspections this year, most of them ending up with 8-9 for all basic gates. Sabary was fully approved the year after.
Second example: Kaiserdom by Van Deyk out of Kimora by Gajus. A pretty plain looking bay, approved last year. On the first day of hard surface inspection I was sure he had no chance. His 4 legs all pointed in different directions 
But boy, when they trotted him down the first long side, it was clear he would end up approved. He had the reach, rhythm, balance and power, plus using his back, in a way you hardly find it today. So he ended up approved. It was left to the breeder to decid weather to use him or not, if you have a correct mare and know she is dominant on foundation, there is hardly a better mover out there.
2.) strength of topline: another delicate discussion. But important. A probably ideal topline is that of K2, champion last fall. Go back to the issue of the ATA magazine with the story on NMS, there is a conformation shot of him. Perfect symbiosis of TB influence and the substance of WBs. Ideal angles in his haunches, and keep in mind, this horse is 2years old! He could have a better saddle position (something that needs MUCH more focus, especially for us riders!!), but he will mature a lot over the next years and will end up just fine. Most important in the topline is the uphill tendency, combined with smooth connections between neck, withers, loins and hip. The topline has to look as if it's ready to swing in every direction. The VErband very clearly got away from stiff toplines over the past years, or backs that are too long. Also, a very strong back is not desired either, as it will make it hard for the rider to sit, especially if the horse is not pusking forward when moving, but upward. You know that from a bouncing feeling, rather uncomfortable, when riding.
3.) emphasis on hind quaters: has gotten very important. You will arly find a stallions today with odd angles in the haunches. They should be "naturally" sitting on their butt! The straight hindquaters from the past are not at all desired and will make it almost impossible to get a stallion approved. Which I don't understanbd in every case. First, especially the "straight legs" in the back seem to produce the best jumpers and secondly, straight legs usually came from Impuls and Ibikus in the past.
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Maren
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sorry, Ingrid, I think I really made it hard on your site's memory, it asked me to post 
I'll continue from above:
Impuls' influence on the breed doesn't need to be discussed, smae is true for Ibikus, but the Verband totally lost the male line since the only left son (elite stallion Banditentraum) produced "steep haunches" pretty regularily and every time a son of his is in NMS, they don't approve because of this. However, you will hardly find better riding horses with better movement. Tough life!
4.) New trend of lots of leg movement without strength in back to bring it through:
good point, Ingrid! The biggest problem I see is that many of last year's approved stallions had tons of impulsion, but everything ended up way behind their bodies, meaning, they don't step under their body and carry weight. Only a handful showed excellent haunch activity, K2, Cadeau, Kaiserdom totally stood out of the crowd.
Again, the problem is pretty much connected to many body parts. It's undeniably a trend in Germany to produce out-of-the-world-trotters. It all surfaced around the Hannovarian stallion Weltmeyer, whose kids just kicked the stars out of the skies. Neverending suspension, reach and push from behind. Nobody talked about walk or canter anymore, although those are by far more important. The Weltmeyers won everything they could---as long as they were young 
When it was time for them to learn to carry themselves, step underneath and bend the haunches, it pretty much was impossible to control them anymore. Their backs were clearly NOT designed for this sort of work. Too much forward. Weltmeyer still dominates Germany's young horse championships, but although he has over 100 approved sons and over 1000 active dressage kids, only a handful reached Grand Prix.
The point is: it's not the world class trot that brings you to GP, it's balance and a feel for rhythm, an excellent walk and uphill, bouncing canter. Something most people tend to forget when they go shopping!
The Trakehner breed in Germany cleary needs to improve walk and canter, this will happy when breeders use TB again, more as they do now. In this country, it was always the TB influence that improved walk and thus canter (and the jumping ability!!).
5.) Bloodlines: subject of neverending discussions. In my opinion, a stallion should be approved without looking at the paper, for his qualities alone. If we end up with 10 approved Sixtus son, fine with me. What I really think is dangerous is the fact that we hardly see any new bloodlines anymore. Breeders don't use TBs because they want to sell the big trotters (see above) and forget that TB and Arabs are the ONLY outside influence we have. Last year, 85% of the stallions approved were relatives. Either Habicht descendants (although they were gone for a long time and now sort of have their "revival", so that's very good), but the neverending Hohenstein-Caprimond-Arogno//Mahagoni//Marduc story doesn't leave a lot of options.
In my eyes, the Verband made a big mistake to not let more of the East German lines survive. After the wall came down, they had the chance of a lifetime. But what happened? East German breeders received all this glossy paper ads from big Western studs (had to be good, came from West!) and crossed all these overbooked stallions on their rare mare lines.
The first really good and approved Trakehner of pure East German bloodlines (Graf Lindenau) was sold to the US, gelded and is now a hunter in Florida!!! Hurray.
Do I have an advantage with more diverse breeding? Not necessarily, but maybe. I have the feeling it depends on the comission's mood of the day 
TB influence: ABSOLUTLY NECESSARY!!!
We have TB stallions that produce size, substance, excellent ridability and noblesse, plus great jumping potential. They just need to be USED. The big problem is that the Verband encourages breeders to use TB stalliosn, but when you go to the mare inspection with your TB/Trak mix, you end up with a low foundation score and they tell you the trot is too flat. And that's contraproductive. First, because it's wrong. We have as many incorrect foundations in purebreds as we have in TBs. The point is, if the foundation fits the horse, fine. A TB/Trak with a lighter frame doesn't need a draft horse foundation. And secondly, it totally discourages the breeder and the result will be that the genepool will become even more restricted. A very dangerous development in my eyes.
And last but not least, size: Renee had it right, the average size that people want here is 16.2. You will find approved 16.3 Trakehners and very seldomly 17.0 (Friedensfürst), but 16.1 is required.
I hope I didn't bore you all to death, if you want more specifics, let me know!!
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« Last Edit: July 24, 2002, 10:26:33 AM by Maren »
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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No Maren, no technical problems. You just have to configure these forums to accept some limit on the length of a post. I picked an arbitrary fairly generous size which is usually adequate, but not when one tries to respond to 15 posts in one message! If this happens too often, I will just expand the number of characters permitted.
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Shawnda
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Sorry Maren that I took so long to respond to you. Anything you wish to do or write for the ATA magazine is fine with me. My deadlin is the 15th of Oct. and if is any sooner I will let you know. Drop me an e-mail and keep in touch.
Shawndan@msn.com
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Suzette
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Maren, I think an interview of Gisela would be fabulous. Especially because of her great influence now in the American breeding program. She gets my vote!
I have to add that I am in TOTAL agreement with your comments on the necessity to make RIDING horses and to concentrate on those qualities which make a horse stay sound (good feet and legs), be trainable (attitude and rideability), and have good movement.
Note, I did not say GREAT movement. I am so sick of people buying that "expensive trot" that is totally useless (actually a detriment) at the higher levels. I agree, the canter is what is important, and what the vast majority of the buyers these days never even look at.
The canter isn't even judged at all in the in-hand classes. The in-hand shows are just "beauty contests" as far as I can see anymore, and I don't see how much value they really have on whether or not the horse will prove to be a success as a performance horse. Just my opinion from having been around for the sport horse world in the US for 20+years. (God am I getting old anymore).
I think I am getting off-topic.
Anyway, I would hate to see the Trak breeders following the rest of the European breeders and end up chasing the "almighty buck", breeding for the quick sale of the young horses with fancy trot.
I don't want to see the lines die out that produce the ones that I want to ride.
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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You ertainly have my signature for your statements, Suzette! Especially about the in-hand shows. It says nothing about the qualities under saddle. But it does give a good idea about conformation.
I haven't heard back fro Shawnda about the interview ideas, but I'll definitly go for Gisela. She is very knowledgable and has experience in riding as well.
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