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Topic: Breeders Guide (Read 5660 times)
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Suzette
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I wanted to bring up Kumi Smedley's idea of resurrecting a breeders guide for the ATA membership. It appears that there are very few comments being forwarded about this.
Are people not interested? Do they even understand what it is?
Breeders Guides are issued anually by the various registries. It has pages which outline registration rules, lists the fees for the year, gives data about the prior breeding year, lists mares that were approved - along with their scores, lists approved/and currently standing stallions with contacts and locations. It is payed for primarily by the stallion owners who buy a page of advertising.
These things are usually money-makers for an organization.
They also are saved and reviewed by breeders for many years.
To my knowlege, the ATA is the only group who has discontinued this program. Why? Why don't breeders want it? Do people think they are getting enough info from the magazine & newsletter?
Personally, I find it sad that we don't -at the very least - have a current list of stallions who are actually standing to the public, along with accurate contact names. What is listed on the internet is only *fairly* accurate, and contains a lot of horses who are no longer standing (died, left the country, lost approval, retired, etc.), and not all the contacts are current. And if you don't have internet access, you have NO information at all!
Wouldn't everyone like to have a breeders' guide?
Why hasn't there been an outpouring of enthusiasm?
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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Joy
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I belonged to the ISR/OLDNA for several years and always looked forward to the Breeders Guide. To see all the approved stallions listed in one place, with information on their bloodlines, stud fees, etc. etc. etc. was great, and seeing photos was even better. I agree, Suzette, this is something the ATA should do, and I'd love to see it.
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Jennifer
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It bugs me no end that there has been no update to the stallion book for years. I placed an order (paid for it, too) for the update that was supposed to be in the works a couple of years ago. It has never been completed. The stallion book is in a smaller sized 3-ring notebook and each stallion has a page with a photo, pedigree and some information. I emailed the office about a year ago asking for an update on the status of the stallion book, was told it was close to being produced, and that they had me down as having paid for it already. I think they were going to update the mare book as well, but I don't think there has been one issued since the part 3 volume that came out in the late 1990s.
An annual breeders' guide would be useful. I imagine they are not cheap to produce and may be comparable in costs to a magazine. Where would the ATA get the money for this? They've already cut the number if magazines due to production costs.
Also, the stallion owners would have to get information to the folks putting together the breeders guide. You may not belive this, but some stallion owners procrastinate when it comes to doing things like this. 
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« Last Edit: May 13, 2004, 02:31:57 PM by Jennifer »
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TwinGates
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I'd forgotten all about the stallion & mare books. Very valuable tools, but Suzette's right; we need something published annually for the breeders.
Do we have any members w/print production backgrounds? Wondering what a 'ballpark' cost w/b to produce.
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airbaby
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It really depends on the quality expected, quantity, size. A cheap B&W booklet on an economical stock is very cost effective. A full colour gloss stock will look great but the cost is up there, although I would alway recommend going this route since the impact is far greater. If someone emails me some idea of size and number of pages I can get a realistic quote. (I can quote low end and high end). Remember, a production artist/graphic designer also need to be involved in order to produce the piece. Also, quality photos need to be scanned and corrected/copy all need to be organized, typed, proofed... Contact me via email if you need help. ruth@soleilequestrian.com
www.soleilequestrian.com
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Suzette
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Airbaby -
Ok, just for a ballpark, can you guess what would it cost for something "middle of the road"? Black and white with decent quality, about 40 pages or so. How many members do we have? Anybody know? Lets say we print, 1000 copies.
Can you guess what it would cost? If we actually have info to fill 20 pages, and sell 20 pages as advertisement (farms, sale horses, stallions, etc). Just guessing here.
Shouldn't we be able to at least breakeven with this?
Any idea on what it would cost?
I think Kumi has a great idea here, and we should at least try to see if it can be done.
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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Just to put this into perspective:
An advertising sponsored guide is a great idea to defray costs. However, organizing advertisers is a huge job. Look at the MWT "Black Book" Directory, which was produced by volunteers and paid by advertisements. Look how many years would go in between editions. That is because it is a long hard road to line up the ducks (I guess that is mixing metaphors  )
What is the purpose of the guide: to give to members, or to hand out to prospective members at trade shows, etc? If the latter, you would need a lot more than 1000 copies.
If it is only for members, is there enough benefit to doing it? Members of the ATA with an interest in breeding already are looking for info on Trakehner stallions and doing OK finding it, between networking, reading the magazine, reading the Stallion Service Auction catalog, and looking online. SO if it is produced for members, will it justify the cost of production, and will it justify the cost to the advertisers in the form of additional bookings or what not?
The issue of ROI for advertisers is present if the guide is made for distribution outside of the membership, just that the investment will be higher because more copies have to be made. In either case, if advertisers don't see that the ad is worthwhile, they will drop out of future editions and that will make producing an annual guide even more difficult.
I am one of the people working on the stallion book update project. Last fall I volunteered to collect the photos and integrate the text and photos in preparation for press, hoping that the project could finally be put to bed. So far I have only collected and scanned the photos as the text is still in revision, I believe partially due to it being a monster task to assemble and get right. I can tell you first hand that not all stallion owners are eager to participate. I wrote, printed, and mailed letters last fall to the owners of record of all stallions trying to get their current photos and confirm the information we had. Many owners of stallions who did not appear in the previous SB have not sent photos of their horses.
Based on quotes I solicited last year for the SB, the cost of this Breeder Guide project for 1000 copies of 40 pages, perfect bound at 5 1/2 x 8 1/2 finished size would be between $1 and $5 per book. $1 gets you black and white on smooth (but not very impressive paper) with a custom color cover. $5 gets you enamel paper with full color all the way through. Ordering 2000 would drop the price by about 10% per book. There may be more charges due to including so many pictures and there will be charges for bleeding the edges (instead of having a white border around the pages) if that is desired.
To finance the printing of the book for members only, at the el cheapo route, you would have to sell 20 B&W pages as ads at $50 a piece. To go the slick route, you would have to sell 20 color pages at $250. And basically multiply those rates for every 1000 copies.
From an advertising perspective, granted that it is targeted advertising, that makes it between 5 and 25 cents for printing alone per impression, or contact with a potential customer. That is probably the high end of acceptability to a lot of potential advertisers, the sport horse market in general being what it is of late. Add to that the cost of ad design, which may be partially handled on a volunteer basis but it is a BIG job. However design is handled, it takes more money from the individual advertiser to have it done or it takes more hands "in the kitchen" on the production end.
And if the office has to mail them they will have to pay additional postage, so advertising should address those costs also.
Possible? Certainly. I don't want to be a neigh-sayer and am willing to help. I just think the task should be put in perspective before it is launched.
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« Last Edit: May 14, 2004, 11:36:11 AM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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airbaby
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Could this breeders guide not be on-line? Not sure why it needs to be printed as it would become obsolete every few months. Why not create pdfs for download. If someone requests copies because they do not have access to the internet, they can just be printed off in B&W on 8 1/2 x 11 paper and sent out or photocopied. Breeders could even include video clips of stallions in quicktime .Mp4 format. Acrobat reader and quicktime is free and so easy to use. Breeders could just fill in a form with all info and then make a payment online to be included in this catalogue and also send updates. Someone still needs to program, compile data and keep data current. Just a thought anyway.
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Suzette
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Nobody said this was going to be easy.
Having been involved with the MWT black brochure for many years, I am aware of what was involved. It was a ton of work, and very time-consuming. But it always broke even, and was very well recieved.
But just because something is hard, does that justify just giving up?
The primary purpose for this it to provide current information to the membership - not necessarily as free-bees to outside people. In most organizations, if you are not a member you must PAY to get a breeding guide sent to you.
Do you really think that the membership has all the info concerning stallion choices that they need? I am not so sure. I hear from quite a few frustrated mare owners every year who can't get ahold of a contact, don't realize that a certain stallion isn't standing (and that's why the owner doesn't bother to call them back), are trying to find certain bloodlines but don't know that there are two sons of that stallion who really are available, etc.
There are a lot of breeders who are very aware of what is going on (like you are, Tannenwald), but the majority are not very well informed at all. (I know this personally, because I get a LOT of these phone calls!) Without a "breeders guide" they feel a bit "abandoned" by the organization. These are the people that we are trying to bring back into the breed. They are easily swayed into another organization who seems more "friendly" to them and sensitive to their needs. They follow the easiest path, and we are not making things easy for them.
I think this is an important thing.
Ok, so what about the difficulty and the cost. Fancy, high-gloss is nice, but not necessary. We learned that with the "black brochure". $1 apiece sounds pretty good to me.
I recognize the difficulties getting info from stallion owners for the stallion book. As a multiple stallion-owner, I can tell you that it is exhausting, and hard to stay enthused about getting all this stuff together. My sympathies are for anyone involved in that project.
Yes, it is tough to get everybody together in time to get a breeder's guide out, but if it is kept simple enough - standardized pages, it can be done without killing anybody.
Thanks for putting the task into perspective. However, it doesn't have to become so large that it implodes!
If we keep it simple, it won't kill anybody!
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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My point was not that something should not be done because it is hard work. My points are that:
1) It is a huge amount of hard work;
2) It will require all kinds of discipline/coordination to make sure that it is put together on an annual basis (ie, coming out the same time each year);
3) There are issues of financial feasibility, with feasibility probably inversely proportional to quality of the publication;
4) It is perhaps duplicative of other resources out there, and if that is the case, volunteer resources and energy might be better spent on a different project. If it is not somewhat redundant, then perhaps I don't know exactly what it is you are striving for.
What I envision when you say "breeders guide" is a textual listing of active stallions, such as used to be distributed by the office. That was always broken down by zone, which I never found particularly useful since most of the breedings are done by AI now anyway. In fact, the zone thing made it frustrating because you couldn't just look for a stallion's name; first you had to figure out where he was so you knew in which zone to look for his name. I was not envisioning stallion photos, but that could conceivably be included (requires more involvement from owners, so...). This textual information would be integrated into a book of advertisements, full page or partial page. If that is what anyone else is envisioning, at least we are on the same page. Suzette, what do you mean when you say "standardized pages"?
Now, as to just having it online with downloadable PDFs: I think part of the issue is people are worried about non-internet users or "internet-challenged" users who don't know how to find the information. As a practical matter, the ATA website lists all of the active stallions, ie, the stallions that have paid their stallion fees. Couldn't tightening up the updating of the website serve the same purpose as downloadable information, or perhaps adding information on those pages like "Not standing/in competition 2004." This comes down to redundancy.
Are printed guides really useful? For example, it was sad to see the membership directory discontinued, but whenever I got one I would sort of just stick it in a drawer. I didn't use the annual stallion list either, largely because I didn't like how it was laid out (the zone thing again) and because I already had the contact info for people I was working with from other sources. I do find myself referring to the old stallion service auction catalogs much more often because of the range of information they provide (a picture, height, some comments, sire/dam, owner, LC/TS, and so forth). But is a breeder's guide going to present so much more information than the stallion service book (other than as to stallions whose services are not donated)? What information would be included?
Where is the information on who is actively standing, etc. going to come from? The information the office has is available on the website or by calling the office. The office would typically have the most updated contact info, more current than what you would have in an annual publication. If the information is supposed to come from the stallion owners I don't think that will work universally well, based on the experience with the SB update project.
I have gotten hyped up about doing things in the past. For example, I converted the ATA rule book into PDF and posted it here and sent the PDF to the ATA for inclusion on the website. It was never included on the website.
I got into a previous discussion on these forums about soliciting advertisers for our magazine so that we could keep more issues. When I talked to the office I was told there were not enough resources to make the pitch to bigger companies, since our readership is too small for these companies to be interested and the sending out of pitch letters and packets with an issue of the mag would cost too much in postage.
So I guess I am playing the devil's advocate in some respects, but I am really just trying to be realistic. I truly am not trying to throw the wet blanket with which I have become so familiar onto you, but just to remind you that the wet blanket is hovering out there. Most of the people you will rely on for information are not going to have anywhere near the level of enthusiasm for the project as you do. Not "you" but anyone with a project. Volunteer time is a valuable commodity (and not necessarily a renewable resource ) so I am trying to prompt everyone to think this through.
Thinking a little more, WHY NOT modify the stallion service directory to accomplish these ends? That is produced every year anyway. It could incorporate advertising, list the stallions with donated breedings in the present format, and also include a textual list of the stallions who don't donate. Would SOs who donate feel slighted that a textual list of non-donators was included? I think this combination might really have possibilities.
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« Last Edit: May 14, 2004, 01:24:44 PM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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Suzette
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By "stallion service directory", do you mean the Auction book? Well, I think those of us who are donating a breeding and all the work and effort and money that goes into doing that would be quite "miffed" that some people will get that exposure for free. Not gonna happen.
Tannenwald, you sound like you have run out of enthusiasm with the organization. It is tough to maintain it. Most of us have been down the same road, and gotten "beat up" too. You sit back for a while, lick your wounds, and then try again later on.... Volunteerism is never rewarded well at all.
My point is that you are trying to make this way-bigger than is necessary. A simple breeders guide doesn't have to get huge. Have you seen some of these? Some get fancy, but most aren't. Some are just as simple as computer printed pages with some advertisement flyers included. The idea is to get the info to the public. By "standardized pages" I meant that the info could be simplified for stallion ads (the NAWPN did it this way in the beginning) with a page for each stallion that could be printed with a photo and the basic contact info, and a space for whatever the owner wanted to ad. These would be "paid for'. The basic "free" info would just be a listing (alphabetically - I agree that I HATE that regional listing!), with the vital statistics and contact info.
The difficulty with only having things available through the internet is that there are still a VERY large number of people who do not use it. This needs to be a print thing to be sent to the members.
Let me give you an example of what actually happened to me last week. I got a call from a mare-owner wanting to book. I asked her how she chose my stallion (don't get me wrong, nice person, nice mare, will make a good baby), and she said she handed a german breeder-friend the ATA magazine and told her to pick one out for her.
She said that she was well aware that only a small number of stallions were in the magazine, but those were the only ones that she had information on. She is not internet capable.
This is the problem that we are trying to adress. How to put at least the minimum info in the hands of breeders - without it costing an arm and a leg.
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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By "stallion service directory", do you mean the Auction book? Well, I think those of us who are donating a breeding and all the work and effort and money that goes into doing that would be quite "miffed" that some people will get that exposure for free. Not gonna happen.
Yes, that is what I mean. Instead of it being an "Auction book" or whatever you want to call it, why not make it a "Breeders' Guide" and let it do double-duty?
Are you saying you would NOT donate a breeding if there was not an independent dedicated booklet coming out highlighting the donating stallions, as opposed to a book that highlighted those donated stallions and provided other information and advertising?
No, I have not totally lost enthusiasm, I have just learned that my own enthusiasm often gets squelched by the lack of it in others.
The example you gave, bizarre as it seems from my perspective and way of breeding, is probably not otherwise unheard of. But, looking to SO advertising and ROI, would it not perhaps better serve SO's and others to invest in advertising in the magazine, which already goes out to all members and has great readership AND obviously needs the financial support, as opposed to advertising in a new publication (with independent expenses of production and distribution).
And getting information to the public is not really what we were discussing; it was getting information to the membership at large. Which the magazine does, and the newsletter does, and well, shoot, the Stallion Service/Auction Book does.
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« Last Edit: May 14, 2004, 02:10:33 PM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Well, first of all, I didn't say the "same exposure." I said a textual list, like in the back of the book, with paid advertising if those stallions or whoever footed the advertising bill. I said donating stallions would still have the formatted (half) page they have now.
And on auction breedings, I am curious: do stallion owners really consider that donation as $1500 (or whatever the stud fee is) out of their pocket? I know I have bought auction breedings to stallions that I would not have chosen first to breed to otherwise out of many considerations, part of it the idea of helping the ATA, part of it the fun of the auction concept of getting a great deal. I cannot say that if I lost a bid on a stallion I would just pick up the phone and book to him anyway. So I think considering a donation as an out-of-pocket loss of a stud fee is not correct, but I am curious how many other stallion owners feel as you do. And I assume by the $1500 you were talking about foregone fees as opposed to other expenses; if that is incorrect, excuse the supposition.
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Suzette
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"Would it not serve them better to invest in advertising in the magazine?"
Well, think of all the available stallions who do NO advertising at all. Why is this?
The expense of creating an ad, and then putting it into a magazine. Think, thousands of dollars and lots of time. People who are new SO's will usually do this for a season or two and then realize it doesn't pay off. Too expensive.
The concept of the breeders guide it to make these stallions visable without a big investment to the SO's.
We all complain about how small our gene pool is becoming, but don't realize that a big part of it is due to advertising and promotion of a small number of the available stallions.
These stallions will reamain in obscurity.
Do I consider a donation of a breeding as a cost of $1500. Most certainly. My studbook is limited in number, and if I hold a space for a breeding donation, then that breeding cannot be sold. It costs me that amount to donate it to the organization. There are a great deal of costs and a lot of time involved in standing a stallion. There is no "free sperm-spigot". Those costs are real. Do other stallion owners feel this way? Most do. The only ones who do not are those who stand to a large, unlimited number of mares (there aren't too many of those!). This is why only a small number of stallion owners are willing to donate a service. They don't feel the advertising value is worth what a studfee costs. If they felt it was worth that amount of money, they would all donate every year!
I suppose it might be possible to connect the breeder's guide to the auction, but then the dollars would be spent by producing the guide - rather than going into the Association's coffers as they do today.
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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TwinGates
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I think donated breedings are foregone earnings regardless of a book's size. Suzette's stallions are established performance horses & sires but those of us who are building a young stallion's career (and limiting a book so he can travel to competitions) feel the 'donation pinch' as well.
I agree the Breeders' Guide is a service to the breed as a whole, and gives mare owners the ability to review all approved stallions - not just the ones who advertise. It's expensive to promote a stallion and this will give an annual snapshot (addressing the issue of a stallions year-to-year approval status) of all available horses.
I'm also in agreement w/bagging the listing by region - too confusing & AI makes it fairly moot anyway. List them alphabetically.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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I guess my training is carrying over. I look at this as I would in determining foregone earnings in the context of litigation. This has nothing to do with what the SO thinks the breeding is worth, just on the economics of the situation. In order to calculate income as being foregone, the income has to have been definite or probable to begin with.
For example, stallion A has a lot of demand. His book is limited to 10 mares and others apply but are turned away. When one of his 10 seasons are donated, there are foregone earnings in the amount of the price of the donated season.
Stallion B has some demand. He breeds 8-10 mares a year and would breed more, but there are no acceptable applicants. Whether a donated breeding from him results in foregone earning depends on whether the buyer of the donated breeding would have bred to him anyway at full price. If the fact of the auction donation brings him mare #11 who he otherwise would not have had, there are no foregone earnings.
Stallion C has pretty well no outside demand, breeding zero or few outside mares. A donated breeding for him does not represent foregone earnings UNLESS the buyer of the breeding definitely would have paid to breed to him and opted for the auction breeding instead.
The amount of foregone earnings in either scenario may not be the stud fee but rather may be a percentage of the stud fee (calculated by how likely it is that the donated breeding is one that would have been sold by the SO independently).
Of course, SO's receive publicity from the auction program as boot, so it may not net to foregone earnings at all.
I agree the Breeders' Guide is a service to the breed as a whole, and gives mare owners the ability to review all approved stallions - not just the ones who advertise. it fairly moot anyway. List them alphabetically.
I think I may have been unclear. My suggestion was to utilize one publication as breeders' guide and auction catalog. Included would be the standard page promotion for donated stallions as it currently is presented in the auction catalog. Also included would be a textual list of stallions who did not donate. Finally, paid advertisements from SOs, breeders, etc. would be included to help fund the production of the book. I am not suggesting eliminating a full list of stallions nor am I suggesting giving them the same level of exposure for free as auction stallions.
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Suzette
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Well, personally, my position becomes as listed in Stallion A. If I give it away, it takes the place of one that I could have sold. The book is filled to capacity (a small number by some standards, but my capacity is all that I have time to service). Therefore, I consider the full studbook value to be lost income.
Stallion B & C still have costs involved - even if not as lost income. The have equipment, supplies, the cost per hour of thier time to handle the mare owner, the actual collections, the paperwork, the prep costs, percentage of the various fees, insurence, etc. It is not 'free'.
There is also the cost of risk to the stallion. For instance, my stallion is on his way home right now from being collected. He suffered a cut to his front leg on the phantom, and has a bloodied nose from rough handling with the chain shank during breeding. Will this kill him? No. But it is a real risk that you take every time you send them away to be collected. He could easily come home a cripple!
And if this is done during show season, it can have serious effects on a well-planned, but instantly-ruined program.
These breedings definitely have "costs" involved to the SO, even if not strictly as lost income.
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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TwinGates
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My position also falls as listed under Stallion A. Again, with the time I have to service mares juggled against his competition schedule, the donated breeding is revenue lost.
My background also involves litigation - I understood your use of foregone earnings.
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Joy
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This is a very interesting discussion, and as a mare owner only, I'd like to add my 2 cents. I think combining the stallion book with the auction is a great idea, and definitely one that I'd like to see pursued. Does anyone plan to present this to the ATA? (If not, I will, so email me.)
I must be the only one that liked the zones! My reason? I'm on the east coast (Maine to be exact), and though AI is available, it doesn't make everything else moot. If I have a choice of 2 stallions that I really like, chances are I'll take the one closest because there are fewer chances of a screwup in delivery. I'm not a fan of 2:00 a.m. breedings (which I've done with stallions in western time zones) and with the airport 2 hours away, I either have a 4 hour round trip drive, plus wait at the airport, or a courier service fee. Getting there and finding no shipment does not make me happy, and UPS Overnight and Fedex aren't always timely.The only advantage I see to breeding to a stallion farther away is that the difference in time zone can give me a bit of extra time to get the vet out in the morning.
BTW, what is ROI?
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TwinGates
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Your point is well-made Joy; I was coming @ it from a stallion-owners perspective, but can see how regions are helpful to some mare owners. Perhaps combine the two: list approved stallions alphabetically, noting region beside names then print a map/legend of regions on facing page for reference.
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