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Topic: Produce by stallion as listed on ATA site (Read 2308 times)
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fuzzy
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That's registered offspring, though. I guarantee if there was a way to count ALL the offspring, (or even % of foals registered out of reported breedings) some numbers would be different. The Jockey Club publishes numbers of reported breedings and numbers of reported live foals, which are also good numbers to see - (when the 'live foal' percentage is low, maybe you don't want to try that horse for fear of lost stud fees and time).
But, from what I can see of the given data - of the top 20 stallions, most had any of three things going for them - big budgets backing them, ownership by people with a lot of their own mares to use the boys on, and a LOT less competition than the warmblood stallion market of today. But I was surprised that it didn't hold entirely true - some very well campaigned, high quality and aged stallions only have a couple dozen kids each out there.
What to make of it beyond that, I don't know, other than that a LOT of people have apparently wasted a lot of time and money to prepare and present horses who may never breed enough mares to earn the fees back, let alone their annual consumption of oats and hay . . . . it's rather sad . .
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Tannenwald Trakehner
ata
Old Hand
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Posts: 935
TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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It was great of Vicki to put that information on the site. I would also like to see a report of the number of mares bred, or at least the numbers of breeding certificates filed. I personally have 4 horses I have not yet papered with the ATA, 3 because they are less than a year old and 1 because I don't know yet whether she should be IAHA or ATA or both. But all have breeding certificates on file. If even a few breeders are like me, the statistics show a skewed view of what stallions are really being used. Also, if you look at the numbers of mares bred reported each year, you can see that some stallions reportedly cover more mares in one year than they have total registered offspring.
Interesting to me is the percentage of ATA papered horses that are entered into the OSB. Some stallions are producing breeding stock and some aren't, and I think those numbers are the most telling as far as which ones are actually influencing "the breed." Meaning, while a stallion may be breeding a lot of mares for foals that are papered into another registry or not at all, I would think the offspring which someone has bothered to have inspected into the studbook (or in the old days, at least paid the money) are more likely to be producing Trakehner-registered (or registrable) foals.
Also, the stallions with the most registered progeny are often the old guys who were brought over more toward the beginning of the ATA's establishment. It makes sense that those boys would have a lot of progeny, due to less breeding competition in the old days, more years to have stood, and the fact that people breeding in the old days were probably more hep to get their horses registered ATA (they would breed specifically to jump the ATA/warmblood movement, and less "alternate" registries were available as options).
So, you know what they say about statistics!
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fuzzy
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I'd suggest both ATA and IAHA papers on the 1/2 Arab - that way you can promote in both the up-and-coming Arab sporthorse market OR the WB market (or for that matter, compete for points in either/both).
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Sovereign Farm
ata
Gold Medallist
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Posts: 481
KALUA by Heling
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And as always, there are the young horses that are "up and coming" so haven't been inspected for the OSB yet. I think that the stallion Kaspareit will be a very influential sire for the breed, through his sons and especially his daughters. However, the oldest foal crop with fillies (while Gay had him and stood him actively) is only 4 or possible 5 years old. He has sired many outstanding fillies since then, many of which will undoubtably influence the Trakehner breed in the future. I'm sure other stallion have similar situations... where they were "found" and utilized in the last few years but won't show up in the statistics for years to come. It is very interesting, though, to see these statistics. Thank you Vicki for putting forth the effort and sharing with us all!!
Heather
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Knot E-Nuf Acres
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I found those statistics very interesting. I do not understand why people do not register the youngsters. That is the least expensive part of breeding or owning Trakehners.
I know of at least 25 youngsters that Donnerkeil OSB-A-S288 has sired. And since he has a rather Shady past there may be more. Only 15 of those are showing up in the research. I have 3 here that are not registered as yet but they are newborns and one under age 1. the Breeding certificates are in for all three of those.
This standing a Stallion is really rather a farce. They all have been thorough the cost and time involved to be inspected. They are supposed to be the best that the breed has to offer. But…. Like some one else said. Only the few that are standing with the people with deep pockets are getting used for breeding. What are the rest of them doing?
With only 4-6 mares a year they will be old men before the world takes notice. Such a shame that some one in the past cared enough to put the time and money into the approval and now the majority of the ATA approved Stallions are little more then yard ornaments. People need to start checking into the Diamonds in the Ruff. It appears that there are a lot of them out there decorating back yards. They should be enhancing our gene pools.
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Sovereign Farm
ata
Gold Medallist
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Posts: 481
KALUA by Heling
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I agree that there are some diamonds in the rough out there and as a mare owner, I have researched the pedigrees of some of them. Last fall I emailed/called at least 3 stallion owners that weren't "popular" stallions, based on bloodlines and conformation. I never got a response from any of them. I was really interested in one and tried repeatedly to no avail. My experience is that sometimes some stallion owners aren't interested in breeding to outside mares (or any mares in some cases). I think it is a shame that some of these stallions will never get used.
Heather
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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I second Heather on the odd marketing practices, or lack thereof, of certain stallion owners. I once sent letters to all of the active ATA stallions' owners in whom I was interested, requesting a video and/or other information. Out of about 22 letters, I received 4 videos. The quality of one was so poor that it was actually laughable—About 30% of it featured the grass filmed at a 3-day, with a soundtrack of the husband and wife owners bickering over why the husband was unable to find the horse with his camera. I received a 5th reply of sorts, from a large farm standing several stallions, and rather than provide any info about their stallions (current stud fees, print materials, or information on fees or whatever is needed to obtain a video), I got a request for video of my mares so that they could help me pick one of their stallions!
There are stallions who are successfully campaigned by people without unlimited pocketbooks, but it is typically very hard work. That kind of commitment is usually found in those who really want their stallion to leave a mark in the gene pool, as opposed to trying to make money.
Marketing stallions is a BUSINESS. ATA approval only tells so much about a horse, and the campaigning of a stallion does not end with the completion of approvals in hand and the fairly simple performance requirement in place. If people are unwilling or unable to make the commitment (in money, time, and sweat), they need to balance their desire to establish a legacy for their stallions against selling or sending the stallions to places where they can be marketed better. It is unreasonable to expect mare owners to locate and then beat a path to the door of a pasture-ornament stallion with no performance history, no documented and detailed performance record of offspring, none or few nice foals of similar type and breeding as the mare-owners, and no decent marketing materials (read, fliers, tapes, websites, print ads, etc) to give mare-owners a reason to choose that stallion out of the many available.
There are many reasons a breeder may choose not to register offspring, or to register offspring later. If the horse is bred for personal use, it may simply not be worth the time & money to paper it. If the horse is bred for sale, the breeder may not want to invest not knowing whether the buyer would choose a different registry (other than the ATA). Or the breeder may want to wait until the horse is mature enough to decide which registry offers the most benefits for the type of the mature horse. Plus, in disciplines such as jumping, people often do not really care about pedigrees and registrations but only the quality & performance of the individual horse.
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fuzzy
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I disagree about registration - it's very important. I won't produce a foal I can't register in at least one or two places. I may only USE one or two of whatever options I have available, but even if the horse is to be 'just a riding horse', registration allows for the offspring of any stallion to be accounted for provided they are competing in recognized shows - and this is VERY important info in choosing a stallion. It's a bit frustrating to me only knowing the accomplishments of a fraction of my gelding's siblings. Some I know, and some I know OF - all are nice horses from babies on up. But they are mostly young - one of the oldest ones is at 2nd level in dressage - mine is winning in hand - along with a half-brother born the same year. An older half-sister is still in the greenie classes, but winning there. I know he can jump - but can his brothers and sisters? He's been assessed as having "potential unlimited" by one of the nation's top judges, and it would be nice to know, "Is he a fluke, or part of a pattern?". Unless people REGISTER the babies, there is no way at all to track that stuff.
Of course, tht's also why I try to get my show results in the ATA mag - to help let people know that while Donnerkeil may not be making the 10+ mares list and is no longer in competition, he's not doing nothing. Hopefully, those results can help get him to the 10+ mares list.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
ata
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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I am not saying that registration is NOT important, for a variety of reasons. However, it is often more important to the stallion owner or to owners of registered relatives than it is to the breeder or to the owner of the offspring. For some people it is not worth the expense or bother.
Most owners do not have a vested interest in making sure a stallion's progeny are traceable (ie, they do not have any ownership interest in the stallion or other reason to promote the stallion).
Of course, if you want to do detective work, I guess you can always try to track down bred mares through a stallions breeding report and foals (registered or unregistered) by the breeding certificates on file.
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Knot E-Nuf Acres
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Marketing stallions is a BUSINESS
I don't think the issue here is Marketing I think the issue is utilizing the Stallions we have. There are a very small amount of Stallion owners that are Marketing The majority of us are Standing our Stallions.
To speak for our selves, we are strictly a MA and PA operation. Yep My husband and I to do all of the work here
We have no outside help or family to help us out. When we are breeding Paul is on the end of the Stallion lead rope and I am on the end of the mare lead rope. Paul does most of the hoof work. We do as much of our own vet work as we can. However our bet bill is like a truck payment. I just send a check every month. Once in a while I actually get ahead but not often. We put up 4000 bales of hay a year. Than means cut, bale and put it in the barn. With out help except when our grand daughters are here and they do stack hay. We have no stall cleaners, no handlers, no one to do the yard work, house work or any thing else. Just two rather old people to do it all.. Do we love what we are doing? ABSOLUTELY! We feel extremely Blessed that we CAN do it all at our ages (pushing 60).
Nothing like sleeping in the freezing barn waiting for that baby to be born. The "Greatest Show on Earth" !
Money cannot buy the experience of living with your horses once in a while.
Our Stallion was shuffled from pillar to post until he came here. When we got him he had been mistreated and mishandled for several years prior. He was not the sweet guy he is now. It has taken a lot of time and effort to undo what others did to him . The most important thing is he is now HAPPY and SECURE with his environment. His get are intelligent and athletic. His only job is Making Fantastic Babies and giving us a ride once in a while.
We keep our breeding fees very reasonable especially for the market that has been established in the Trakehner world.
WHY? Our goal is to provide Great horses that are affordable for people who have the ambition to train show and enjoy. Our Stallion earns his own keep, always has. We are not in this to make a living. (that is why I still work full time to pay those grain bills) We are in this because we love the breed. We feel that the Trakehner Breed is the BEST horse breed ever established. We love being mid wife to our mares at foaling, We love working with the foals.
I must say I have never not answered a request for further information on our stallion . Our videos are not professional. We have to do that part too. I will say that our videos are honest. The good the bad and the goofy. We have a web site with all of the youngsters on it and show records for Keil-kids. Yes I do the web site too as well as all the books. No accountant here, just me. Our Web Page and the ATA site are all we can do for advertising.
Am I Happy with the amount of clients Donnerkeil has? Yes I am. We have repeat clients. That to me says something for the genetics of our stallions' get. Do his offspring sell? Yes they do and are spread from the Mississippi to the Atlantic Ocean.
I am sure there are as many stories of why so many ATA approved Stallions are not Marketed as there are Stallions in back yards. Does that make us unwilling or unable to make the commitment (in money, time, and sweat),
I don't think so. Rather it shows how much we care more for our Stallions and their happiness then we do about having them in the lime light. You see we can take the time to love our animals. I truly admire the Stallion owners that do Market their stallions. They are the inspiration for the rest of us and they do great things for our advertising and promoting the breed.
The show world is not for us. Try showing your Stallion or youngsters in hand at the age of 60. You might be able to accomplish that with a different breed but… these Trakehners can move and they move big. We don't.
Thank you for allowing me to share one side of this issue. This is a great site for getting to know one another. Thanks Ingrid for building the site and maintaining it. You do good work!
[b][/b]
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Knot E-Nuf Acres
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Suzette I must have missed some important point. I don't think this is a heated discussion just a good discussion.
The more input from all areas of this Stallion spectrum the better in my opinion.
Maybe whoever is doing the stallion list on the ATA Web Site could find a way to say which stallions want to be busy and which ones want to be just handsome. Whether they owners want to stand their stallions is their choice. But all the approved Stallions have been approved because they are extra special. They deserve to be honored and it is a privilege to own one of the chosen few. People who have been disappointed because they got no response from a stallion owner that does not want to Stand his Stallion would not be mad and disappointed because they got no response. They would know from the get –go that the likelihood of getting a breeding from this stallion is not too encouraging. With most people being on the Internet and using e-mail that would not be a formidable task.
Make a form send it out. Specify active inactive or maybe. Then maybe a place to ask how many mares they would be willing to accept if it is a maybe. If you get no response at all from a stallion owner list that too.
As you, of all people know, the marketing of a Stallion is a lot of work. Just scheduling the breeding appointments for a few a year is a job. I can not even imagine how the really active breeders can even keep things all organized. Takes a lot of work and organization. And then to add a show schedule and all the riding and training. WHEW.
I would love to see different stallions in the magazine too The people that are out there spending time and money to promote their stallions deserve the recognition they are getting but…. It would be nice to see some of the less used stallions in the magazine from time to time too.
The other area that we are falling short in is getting performance results made available to the public. Who ever thought of that performance results page on the ATA web site had an amazing stroke of Genius But no one seems to have time to maintain the results. I would be glad to take care of that part of the ATA web page. The form you fill in is easy to use but. People just don't bother because the scores are seldom updated. The people that initially did the work, mainly Vickie, have jobs and lives and horses. They deserve some help. They need to delegate some of the work. . One job for one person not all the jobs for one person. The ATA Web site is a wonderful tool for advertising, selling and learning all about the Trakehners in America. Unfortunately it is such a well put together site with so much information that it has become an overwhelming task for one or two people..
So that would be my constructive idea for the day. Delegate some of the work on the ATA web site. Make it work for the Trakehner owners and breeders. DELEGATE DELEGATE DELEGATE.
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