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Topic: How much TB? (Read 8512 times)
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Joy
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I've just acquired a lovely TB mare, ex-Prelim level eventer, and have been looking at various stallions with an eye to breeding her. Some that have TB very close--like Rubinesque, for example, whose dam is TB, or Windfall. What is the advisability of breeding a TB mare to Anglo-Trakehner stallions? What about breeding to an Arab-Trakehner such as TF Peron's Brilliance?
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Joy
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Maybe I should be more clear. I'm not looking for suggestions about what stallion to breed to specifically. The fact that I now have a TB just started me thinking about breeding Trakehners in general and the advisability of breeding TB mares to a stallion with TB up close (like Windfall) or even an Arab-Trakehner like TF Peron's Brilliance. The goal, of course, is to breed a good TRAKEHNER, not just a nice sporthorse. My own thoughts are that probably one should not breed TB up close, but maybe Arab up close would be better, and full Trakehner with little or no TB in the past 4 generations would be best.
Incidentally, one of the things that got my mind going in this direction is that I was thumbing through the stallion yearbook "Ausgweaehlte Hengste Deutschlands" and noticed a small number of other warmbloods that were upto 3/4 TB, such as Pershing.
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DK
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From a totally personal standpoint I wouldn't do it. There is (yet another) thread going on at another BB about how all Traks have so much Arab and TB blood and that's why they're difficult, hot, etc. I bred my TB mare to a Trak stallion and when her daughter is old enough to breed I'll breed her to a stallion that is at least 3/4 Trak (I'm thinking Donaufurst here  .) I know that there are several different schools of thinking on the subject, but I personally want a Trak that's at least half Trak. If you get too far away from the breed (i.e. the horse being 3/4 TB) then you are still representing the breed, but you have inevitably lost some of the characteristics and aspects of it. Therefore, you get some of the "Oh, that's a Trakehner. See, they do look/act just like Thoroughbreds." I really hope I'm making sense here. . . 
Edited to add: I do completely support the addition of TB and Arab blood into the Trak. gene pool. I think that it is important to add diversity and it has made the breed what it is. It's like booze -- everything in moderation. 
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« Last Edit: March 29, 2004, 05:12:09 PM by DK »
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David of WI
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Here in the Midwest we are lucky to have one of the best Trakehner barns in the U.S. http://www.rollingoaksfarm.com/ Rolling Oaks Farms has a couple of fine stallions and the Cornelison sisters can assist you in making a decision about who would be the most appropriate for your needs.
-David
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Joy
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I absolutely agree that something is lost if the TK is not there in sufficient quantity. OTOH, since TK is primarily an Anglo-Arab hybrid, what is lost if crossing a TB with an Arab-Trakehner? Is there a loss there? Or does that reinforce the TK type?
This is all speculative, of course, (at least for me) but is interesting to contemplate. I do plan on breeding her to a stallion whose bloodlines don't have TB or Arab too close. The woman I got the mare from, OTOH, breeds "sport horses", with no requirement for a particular breed, and commented that she'd love to see the mare bred to Windfall. I suppose that's what got my mind going to begin with, because I'd never have considered Windfall myself.
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Maren
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Well, I disagree.
the ORIGIN of the breed, in most cases, were mares with 3/4 "hot" blood, either Arab or TB. And if we not carefully select breeding horses with these very attributes, the Trakehner will no longer be distinguishable from other WBS. And we're there already. Horses like Solero or Münchhausen (I'm just picking the famous ones here) could be any breed.
The Trakehner, by definition, is an Anglo breed, it is NOT a purebred breed. It is a breed that generates many different types of horses, heavy ones just as much as light ones, but they all trace back tot he same roots and in the past 60 years of breeding, we're gone a long way from neglecting these roots, by far not for the better of the breed. So, to say it with DK's words, you're only getting away from the breed if you STOP using more TB. Not the other way around. I don't mean that for every Trakehner, and I also breed horses that don't have 50% TB or more, but the definition of our breed simply allows and asks for the high % hot blood horses, and they are about to die out. THAT is dangerous for the overall quality of the breed, mostly because the constriction to a few genetic pools is already a big problem.
I also disagree that the addition of TB blood and Arab blood causes the horse to be more difficult. That's not true. In most cases it does make the horse tougher, the better performer, the quicker thinker, the more fertile breeder. And some riders might not be able to handle that. That is where a lot of that "reputation" comes from. I own Trakehners ("purebred"), Anglo Trakehners and also TBs and don't notice much of a difference in their general temper, I do notice a difference under saddle in terms of movement (the Anglos are bit more ordinary than the purebreds we have), thinking (the TBs learn a lot quicker) etc.
Since you all point out that you love the characteristics of your Trakehner so much, you don't want to lose it, have you ever asked yourself WHERE these characteristics come from, historically?? You'll be surprised...
I don't want to play the trumpet for Windfall all the time, but he's a nice exmaple, he is 3/4 NON Trak blood. Yet he displays more type and more original features of the Trakehner than most other horses today. Of course you can cross him on purebreds and hope to enhance the Trakehner look. But isn't is surprising that his most typey, intelligent and successful offspring come out of Trakehner mares with TB close by?
Regarding Joy's mare. If you want to start out with a TB mare and don't want too much TB or Arab blood close by, I recommend to look at stallions that at least offer a lot of the Arab or TB qualities w/o looking like them. You've got some outstanding lines in the US (that unfortunately have died out over here), like Condus (as in Leonidas or Kim's Taz) or the Prince Rouge xx stallion line (sons of Zauberklang), definitely also the Bukephalos offspring, all lines that tend to produce more according to their genetic background and their phenotype "looks". That way you may be able to consolidate the Trakehner idea, w/o having to cross on Arab/TB lines too close by.
Just my two cents...
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Joy
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If you want to start out with a TB mare and don't want too much TB or Arab blood close by, I recommend to look at stallions that at least offer a lot of the Arab or TB qualities w/o looking like them.
Thanks, Maren, I was hoping to get your thoughts. What are the qualities to which you are referring? What are the Trakehner qualities, or roots, you're referring to that you think we're losing? I hadn't noticed that Windfall's grandsire was AA! Thanks for pointing that out.
"I do notice a difference under saddle in terms of movement (the Anglos are bit more ordinary than the purebreds we have),"
What do you mean by "ordinary"? How is the movement different?
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« Last Edit: March 30, 2004, 10:04:30 AM by Joy »
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Suzette
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I would like to add two points to this discussion. And this is just my opinion from being "out there" for many years - both breeding and competing in the US.
First. The TB that is used in this country is very different from the TB that is used in Europe. It is important to remember that when discussing it's use in breeding Trakehners. The TB blood that is used in Europe is a distance horse, larger, more uphill and "breedier". The TB that is present in the US in large numbers is a sprinter. It is smaller, lighter of bone, hotter of temper, and built more downhill. Large use of this type is not recommended if we are to maintain Trakehner type. I would not like to see more than 1/4 of this type of TB in a pedigree.
Second. If you are breeding for eventing horses, then you would like a larger percentage of TB in your lineage. 1/2 TB or even as much as 3/4 TB is fine. If you are breeding for dressage, no more than 1/4 OF THIS TYPE OF TB BLOOD is preferrable . The quality of the trot declines. The ability of the horse to "sit" is lost by crossing out to these type of TB mares due to conformational challenges that are present in "sprinter" types. The canter activity is improved by adding TB blood, but there is loss of "concentration ability" and substance also.
Again, I am speaking as a dressage rider/breeder here.
This is just my opinion based on what I know of our breeding base here in America. Maren, I am sure that I would feel differently if we had a predominance of the type of TB's that are used in Europe.
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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Joy
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You're right about most of the TB's in this country, Suzette. The first time I saw a European TB I was astounded at how different they were, how much bigger, how much more bone.
Just for the heck of it, I'm posting a photo of Mariah, the mare that got me thinking about all this. She does have that TB dip in front of the withers, but she's 16.2, which seems like a pretty good size to me. I gave her a quick brush but between shedding like mad and a good roll in the mud, it all sort of smeared around. I hope you can see her conformation in spite of that. BTW, she's in foal (due mid-June), so I doubt that she usually has that pot belly she's showing in the photo.
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« Last Edit: April 04, 2004, 07:54:30 AM by Joy »
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EclypseSporthorses
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Well, I disagree. the ORIGIN of the breed, in most cases, were mares with 3/4 "hot" blood, either Arab or TB. And if we not carefully select breeding horses with these very attributes, the Trakehner will no longer be distinguishable from other WBS. Maren, I didn't mean it was bad for the breed- I was thinking if she is breeding for a horse that was registered Trakehner....I agree with you whole heartedly.-but the definition of our breed simply allows and asks for the high % hot blood horses, and they are about to die out. THAT is dangerous for the overall quality of the breed, mostly because the constriction to a few genetic pools is already a big problem.
I also disagree that the addition of TB blood and Arab blood causes the horse to be more difficult. your Trakehner so much, you don't want to lose it, have you ever asked yourself WHERE these characteristics come from, historically?? You'll be surprised...Very true, Maren & I'm so glad to hear people mention the genentic pool problem...I have mentioned it before & was told there is no problem... Look at the year the ATA approved stallions were born...only like 36 were born after 1990 & of them many are related...I'd say that is a problem. When is the Pilot program ending? And do we have enough TB Arab blood in the gene pool? I feel like recruiting some of the TB Arab folks, & I have a few, though the Arab stallion owners are prohibited by the Jumping requirement of the performance part of inspection & wonder why the show records cant speak for themselves? We are missing out on some of the very best & most substantial horses, it would be nice if they could be invited in and not have to do the jumping / cross country part- as it would interfer with their showing & open the owners to possible injuries they are not willing to risk their horse.. Example there are many Endurance stallions that are GREAT horses, though they compete in endurance and (100mile races) and do not have the room in their training time to teach this horse to do dressage and jump cross country, especially if it is an older horse & would have to compete at training level cc.
Sorry, if I'm off topic... Christina attatching an example of the type of stallion I'm talking about He is an Arabian stallion....I'm not advertising...just saw him in March Endurance News...along with several other substantial horses that have already prooved themselves by logging thousands of miles of competition...many of these Arabian stallions are 15.2-16.1hh...Why aren't we tapping into these horses & inviting them into our breed....making it simpilier for them to be approved??? Our breed needs stallions like this and the process should not be so prohibitive or we will make tradition the pill on which we choke.
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« Last Edit: March 30, 2004, 11:04:24 AM by Christina »
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
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*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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Joy
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Maren,
I didn't mean it was bad for the breed- I was thinking if she is breeding for a horse that was registered Trakehner....I agree with you whole heartedly.
I don't understand the distinction. If I have a PSB approved mare and breed her to a registered Trakehner, regardless of whether he's Anglo- or Arab-Trakehner, her offspring will still be registered Trakehner, not PWR or AWS or whatever.
I agree that there are some very, very desirable Arabian stallions out there, and I, too, think it's important to be able to have some of the requirements waived for performing stallions. In fact, I submitted that proposal, among others, to the March board meeting for their consideration. OTOH, if the stallion is an endurance champion, how will the inspection committee know anything about jumping or dressage ability?
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EclypseSporthorses
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I don't understand the distinction. If I have a PSB approved mare and breed her to a registered Trakehner, regardless of whether he's Anglo- or Arab-Trakehner, her offspring will still be registered Trakehner, not PWR or AWS or whatever. I guess maybe my understand of this is wrong? I thought there could not be TB or Arab blood for FOUR generations if you are breeding to a TB or ARAB? I hope I'm wrong because, like what Maren was talking about, it can make a better horse... I have read so much diff. stuff that sometimes I remember it wrong...So can someone clarifiy this for me? If you breed a TB mare to an Arab-Trake or Anglo Trake, is the foal registered Trakehner? I guess I must happily appoligize if it is because I've been thinking about this wrong the entire time! Sorry...I agree that there are some very, very desirable Arabian stallions out there, and I, too, think it's important to be able to have some of the requirements waived for performing stallions. In fact, I submitted that proposal, among others, to the March board meeting for their consideration. OTOH, if the stallion is an endurance champion, how will the inspection committee know anything about jumping or dressage ability? Joy, I am just talking about the Performance part, not the initial inspection...they could still do the free jumping ect...it is just the thought that we'd be losing great athletes, just because they do a different sport (that the owner chose) doesn't mean they don't have dressage or Jump ability.JMHO  |
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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Joy
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You know, Christina, I had thought the same thing, but now I'm not sure, so I'd like some clarification on this myself.
YES! I agree, discipline should not matter. And I'm not sure it does, because a TB stallion that has a racing history is still considered to have the performance requirement. Maybe someone can clarify that as well?
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Joy
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Thanks, Suzette. After rereading the rules, I haven't found anything to contradict that. but I did remember hearing something like that in some recesses of my memory.
And that brings us full circle to advisability, doesn't it?
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Jennifer
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Fully registered offspring come from inspected and approved parents.
The pilot program is allowing for the inspection of TB, arab, angloarab, TB-Trak, arab-Trak mares. If accepted by the ATA registry, then their offsping may get full Trakehner registration if the father of the resulting foals is an approved Trakehner. However, the father may not be a stallion that was brought in under the pilot program, like one of the approves arab or TB stallions. For example, it would not apply to an ATA-approved TB mare bred to an ATA-approved TB stallion. The resulting foal from this match would not be eligible for any Trakehner registration.
There is no requirement about waiting until the fourth generation or something (I'm not sure of the number of generations back the "problem" or "not registered full Trakehner" ancestor has to be) for any of the offspring of these horses (the ATA-approved ones) to be eligible for full registration. You may be thinking about a provision that would be in effect if it weren't for the pilot program by which the offspring from mares with this pedigree issue could be eligible for full registration.
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« Last Edit: March 30, 2004, 01:10:58 PM by Jennifer »
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DK
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Very insightful thoughts, Suzette. I agree that a distinction between the european style TB and the american style TB needs to be made. I think that too much infusion of the american style TB (downhill, very light boned, and hot) can and will spell disaster for the breed. When making my comments regarding the limitation of infusion of TB blood this is the type of TB I was referring to. Thank you for differentiating.
I also agree on the purpose of the breeding/offspring in regards to hot blood infusion. I am breeding for dressage specifically and am not interested in a horse with less than 1/2 Trak. lines for exactly the reasons you mention. I also agree that certain styles of riding (i.e. eventing, jumping, etc.) may call for variations in the amount of hot blood needed or desired. Overall, I think your points were very well made.
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Jennifer
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One of the issues that is often sited when using TB's is that their movement is usually not very elastic. Maybe Maren could discuss how this may or may not be an improtant consideration when chosing a TB to cross with a Trakehner.
Of course, there are TBs who have very elactic movment. I have a tape from Klosterhof Mendigen (sp?) which has a TB stallion called Sevillano (I think that's close to the right name!) who is a grand mover, and I think he was something like 17 years old in the video! But, its the rare TB with that type of movement.
I also agree that the conformation of the TB is really and important consideration. There are too many TBs in the US with that downhill build and low-set necks, more of a hunter-type conformation. Just go look at some pictures of Bold Ruler, for example. He was built really downhill as are many of his offspring; but there are always exceptions to this depending on the mare, of course.
I really liked the conformation of the TB Loyal Pal who recently died. He was an eventing sire. I wouldn't mind having a mare by him, that's for sure! I also like the TB stallion Innkeeper who was approved by the Oldenburg ISR last year and stands at Hilltop Farm as a guest stallion this year. He's by Secretariat out of a Mr. Prospector mare, but he really looks like Mr. Prospector and not Secretariat or his father Bold Ruler. I saw him in person, too, a couple of weeks ago! Gorgeous! Wonderful temperament! Another TB I wouldn't mind having in the pedigree of a sport horse.
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