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Topic: Growing the Breed Strongly & with Forward Momentum (Read 8804 times)
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acottongim
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I love Trakehners!
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To be fair Christina, I do see ATA advertising all the time in just about all the major publications. Esp in the breeding editions - every one of the magazines that I get had the ATA silent auction in it. Also, the Hunter and Sport Horse just about had more TKs in it than any other breed. I've seen ATA advertising in Dressage Today also.
I am not saying that people on this board, don't promote the breed, nor that there aren't owners of TKs out there that don't do all they can to promote the breed. I am saying that there are ALOT of owners out there that don't "advertise" that they have/ride/own a TK.
There are also alot of people out there that want to help, have good ideas, but don't follow through with them, or never bring them to anyone's attention.
Julie is ONE person, and she lives in the South - if she is not aware of an event (and I'm not saying that she is or is not aware of the Midwest Affair, just playing devil's advocate) - then she can't make sure that the breed is promoted. All it takes is for someone that knows about something coming up to contact the appropriate people in a timely enough manner, to get a booth up and running etc. Not that it is always that easy I know - sometimes the red tape is horrendous in any org. But everyone has to work as a team.
I don't entirely agree with you about the breeding/bloodlines. Yes, I think that there needs to be "new" blood out there in terms of promoting and approving new stallions, and I think that the testing for mares could be more stringent. But I also think that if you open the books up too much we run the risk of eventually produing a lesser quality TK than what we have today.
I have been around Trakehners since I was 11 (I am 36 now), mostly in Germany. I have seen the breed evolve to a more refined, elegant animal that has the talent to do anything and succeed at any discipline. This is great!! I don't want to open the stud books up to "any" kind of horse and then in 10 years or so have a sub par breed. The TK breed has always been a smaller registery with many of the same bloodlines running throughout the horses - please someone correct me if I am wrong, I am NOT an expert on bloodlines!! But if you look at the pedigrees of the older (I'm talking from the 70's and earlier) you have many of the same names cropping up again and again. The Verband and the ATA opened up to T'breds and Arabs to allow some refining, "fresh" blood to come into the bloodlines. This is being accomplished.
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Joy
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I love Trakehners!
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We also allow Shagya, which has, of course, its roots in the Arabian. Since the TK is primarily an Anglo-Arab, I'm not sure whether your comments signify that we need blood from other breeds. That, of course, would mean the Trakehner is no longer a Trakehner. Adding new blood via TB and Arabian is, as you said, the only way to add new blood, and the way I see it, that's the way it should be to maintain breed standards. The problem arises when TK owners don't want to have TB or Arab up close. Personally, I like it close, but I wonder how many TK owners that don't want blood closer than 4 generations are aware that Windfall and some of the other well-known TK's have so much blood up close and personal,
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EclypseSporthorses
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Go The Distance
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Hi Joy, I was wondering about her comments of outside blood, of *course* :oI ment only the traditional Arab-TB-Shagya blood. You should know me better than THAT by now...geez, now my feelings are hurt... 
Actually when you look at Windfall, his sire is Habicht, which of course is by the ANGLOARABIAN Burnus. And out of Hallo, where the only "actual" Trakehner blood comes in, since Windfalls dam is a TB. I think since Windfall has gotten great comments about his Trakehner type, his pedigree is the perfect example of why we need this blend of TB, Arabian, Shagya and Trakehner to make the 'ideal' type for a Trakehner. **And, I am with you Joy, I hope people realize the importance of using sires with lines like Burnus to produce such great horses as Habicht and Windfall, someone has to indeed be insightful enough to actually use the half-Arabian and half TB sires in a generation to produce the next generation of *excellence*, otherwise it is lost. I do see that it tends to be the half-Arabian, or half-TB Sires that tend to produce that athletic prowess, though it is true on using it anywhere in the pedigree. As it has been with our horse, his dam was the Arabian, though I think that using him puts that Arabian back in the top of the pedigree, just like with Windfall (his dam being TB), his dam may have been the one bringing in the *majority* of TB blood, though it will be through Windfall (top of pedigree again) that the blood is nicking particularly well, as with Ingrid great mares, those are going to be some fanastic horses, having all that new genetics on the top of the pedigree blended with her great Trakehner mares, I can hardly wait to see them as mature horses! 
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Since the TK is primarily an Anglo-Arab,
JOY, you didn't really mean that, did you?
The problem arises when TK owners don't want to have TB or Arab up close. Personally, I like it close
I think the old guideline for the "best" combination was 25% TB and 12% Arabian/Shagya, which meant there was a Thoroughbred grandparent and an Arab great-grandparent (or fractions thereof to reach the percentages).
As an aesthetic and practical matter, this combination preserved the breed "type," in the best cases borrowing the best attributes of the TB and Arab yet maintaining the type of the Trakehner.
The modern concept of warmbloods has evolved to something lighter in general across the board (look how much lighter and more elegant the Hanoverian and Holsteiners have become, which used to always be heftier breeds than the Trakehner). I think it has gradually become more desireable to have the refining blood closer up in terms of aesthetics.
However, from a breeding perspective with the goal of maintaining a breed with consistent qualities, we don't (and shouldn't) aim for the blood to be in the first generation. This goes to the reliability of the F1 cross--in itself it can be exemplary, but when crossed back or to other F1's the offspring can be all over the board in terms of quality, size, shape, and ability.
Happily, with the Trakehner the type of the purebred is often similar to the type of the blood horse that is being crossed in, which lessens the disparities between a purebred and an F1. And which also lessens the risks involved in crossing F1's. So having TB and Arab blood close up works pretty well where it doesn't detract from the type.
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Joy
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I love Trakehners!
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Since the TK is primarily an Anglo-Arab, JOY, you didn't really mean that, did you? Well, yes, I did mean that. I was surprised at first when it was pointed out to me, but on reflection I realized she was right. If you look at the Trakehner bloodlines, they started out with the little hardy local horse (can't remember the breed) and crossed with Arabians, TB's, Shagya, and a few others. What maintains the breed type is that constant infusion of blood. Indeed, the Verband expressed concern only a few years ago about losing type if more blood were not introduced. Examining the bloodlines of our wonderful Trakehners will show the truth of the statement that they are primarily (but not exclusively) Anglo-Arabs.
The problem arises when TK owners don't want to have TB or Arab up close. Personally, I like it close
However, from a breeding perspective with the goal of maintaining a breed with consistent qualities, we don't (and shouldn't) aim for the blood to be in the first generation. This goes to the reliability of the F1 cross--in itself it can be exemplary, but when crossed back or to other F1's the offspring can be all over the board in terms of quality, size, shape, and ability.
True, but we can't get it in the 4th and 5th generations without an F1 generation to begin with. I think owners of TB and Arabian mares are much more likely to breed that F1 cross than owners of TK mares, which is too bad, because putting the blood on top is probably more desirable.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Examining the bloodlines of our wonderful Trakehners will show the truth of the statement that they are primarily (but not exclusively) Anglo-Arabs.
This perspective is disturbing because so often we counter the argument of Trakehners being just "big Thoroughbreds" or "Anglo-Arabs, two crazies put together." This is just wrong, and disregards centuries of selective breeding that make the Trakehner a Trakehner (and other breeds distinct breeds).
Looking at it that way, you could say the Thoroughbred is actually an Arabian because 2 of the foundation stallions were Arabs (the third, the Byerley Turk, probably being something like an Akhal Teke). Incidentally, a Turkish stallion also stood at Trakehnen in the 18th century.
You could also say a Quarter Horse (and every other breed) is pretty much Eohippus, since that is what it started with. But that disregards millenia of selective breeding, though not conducted by humans.
The native East Prussian Schwaike, contributed hugely to the breed. It was a little dumpling of a horse, coarse but hardy. But obviously the genetics were strong.
Think about it--if the Trakehner is an Anglo-Arab, why would you have to add TB or Arab back in to maintain the type (and keep it from getting too coarse, heavy, and short)? Breeding a TB to a Anglo-Arab just makes a 3/4 Anglo-1/4 Arab. Anglo-Arabs bred to other Anglo-Arabs do not make coarse offspring. They make more Anglo-Arabs. The reason that we need to keep infusing the breed with the "hot" bloods is because the little Schwaike keeps saying "hello," after all of these generations.
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« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 03:51:45 AM by Boss Mare »
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David Couch
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Just had to quote a maxim given to me from Ursula Liakos," a little blood goes a long way". Hope I got that right, anyway got the substance.
Back to breed promotion from genetics, Pins? I have both ATA and NATA pins. They were given at annual meetings with registrations, incentive for members to attend. Dont know current status of ATA pins. I wear one or the other in my tie when I compete.
Terry Williams had a nice brochure he made at the Toronto meeting. It featured an historic photo of some Prussian Hussars and their Trakehners, and pictures of the US. Olympic medalists,Abdullah,Peron and Windfall. I liked it a lot. Hope it will be available in the future. My slogan to go with it is"preservation through performance".
I second what Shawnda said above. The ATA does need member volunteerism at what ever level members can participate. You dont have to be famous or a top level competitor to give your time to the organisation.
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Joy
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I love Trakehners!
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This perspective is disturbing because so often we counter the argument of Trakehners being just "big Thoroughbreds" or "Anglo-Arabs, two crazies put together." This is just wrong, and disregards centuries of selective breeding that make the Trakehner a Trakehner (and other breeds distinct breeds).
The native East Prussian Schwaike, contributed hugely to the breed. It was a little dumpling of a horse, coarse but hardy. But obviously the genetics were strong.
waike keeps saying "hello," after all of these generations.
As I said, this was pointed out to me by someone else...in fact, a well-known German Trakehner breeder. No one is discounting the importance of the native Schwaike, and it's obvious that those genetics are strong.
WRT TB's, their book is entirely closed. TB to TB only, though selective breeding has certainly formed different TB types in Europe and the U.S.. We still infuse blood into the Trakehner, because TB and Arabian are so important to the breed. I suspect this may stop some point down the road. After all, the present-day Trakehners started with only a handful of horses; there weren't many left after the trek. The problems associated with inbreeding made it essential to outcross, and where better to start than the horses that had always been so important anyway...the AA, TB, and Arabians?
I'm not too worried about what people say to justify the "crazy Trakehners" notion. They'll say what they want, regardless of anything we could counter with. Trakehners, after all, are their own best ambassadors.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Christina, I don't have cabin fever but apparently am being misunderstood. I apologize for that, and toward the end of clearing such misunderstanding, I will expound.
The Trakehner is not an Anglo-Arab, nor is it "primarily" one. And it doesn't matter even if Santa Claus said it -- The Trakehner is a Trakehner.
An Anglo-Arab is a particular cross of horse and is also a recognized breed, at least in North America. As such, the term "Anglo-Arab" implies a certain percentage of Arabian blood and a certain percentage of Thoroughbred blood, with no other blood involved. To the casual reader, "Anglo-Arab" implies 50/50, but the AHA (the official registry for Anglo-Arabians) defines it as a cross between an Arab and a TB with no more than 25% and no less than 75% Arabian blood.
In no case is a Trakehner purely a mix of TB and Arab. Individual horses who are TBs, Arabs, and Anglo-Arabs have been licensed or approved for breeding in the Trakehner books, but even they are not "Trakehners." And of these licensed horses who contribute to the breed, in terms of quantity of "blood," the TB contributes more than the Arab. Meaning, more TBs have been used in the breed than Arabs. Comparatively very few Anglo-Arabs have been used at all, though due to popularity of the lines of certain individuals (ie, Burnus), they have contributed more significantly than their numbers imply.
Yes, the Trakehner has TB blood. Yes, it has Arab blood. And it has Trakehner blood. Individual horses have none, some, or a lot of TB or Arab but always have Trakehner.
This is not just a matter of semantics. And particularly in the context of "Growing the Breed Strongly & with Forward Momentum," how can that accomplished if we call our horses a different breed than they are?
I don't know how much of a person's beliefs one can expect to distill from the fact that they own and breed a TB, or breed to a Trakehner who happens to possess a greater amount of TB and Arab blood than most. Bloodlines are always important to a breeder, but at least from my perspective the qualities of the individual animal are at least as important.
Picking up on the example of Windfall, he is a unique animal who no doubt owes his success in part to his breeding. His pedigree includes 1/8 Arab blood, more specifically Shagya, from the stallion Lapis, and approximately 5/8 TB through his TB dam and Burnus on the top. Not to minimize the part of his gorgeous and accomplished TB dam, who he resembles in many respects, he is undeniably stamped by his sire Habicht. Similarly, Habicht was stamped by both parents, and reliably passed on many of their features.
From looking my two Windfall foals, and at as many others as I have been able to, some of the most consistent conformational traits that I see are those of Habicht. In any event, when crossed with the right mares, Windfall is very capable of stamping his foals with his own phenotype, which is very clearly a blend of those of his parents.
I LIKE these foals and am repeating the cross with one of our mares. But does it mean that we could expect the same results from any stallion with 1/8 Arab blood and 5/8 TB blood? Of course not. Can we pick Windfall apart and say what part of his appearance or performance ability, or even ability to breed true, are coming from his TB or Arab blood? I don't think so. I am breeding to him because he is the unique Trakehner that he is.
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 11:12:18 AM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Burnus AA (who they called as "Brunus" in the article you linked  ) is by Lapis, a Yugoslavian bred Shagya, and out of Fenek, a mare with Arab, TB, and a little bit of Hungarian Warmblood lines, who was bred at the Kisber State Stud. The Verband had to stretch to let Burnus into the book.
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Joy
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I love Trakehners!
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Ah! Now I see the misunderstanding! In no way did I mean Anglo-Arab as a breed, so perhaps I should have said TB/Arabian? And of couse! they are Trakehners! And of course they are unique! But without the TB and without the Arabian...there is no Trakehner. That's what I was referring to.
Christina...my 1/2 Arab mare has a dorsal stripe, and so did her chestnut filly. No leg stripes, though. And is "Brunus" really Burnus, or a different stallion altogether? I do find it interesting that in the article they refer to him as a Trakehner stallion(!) "that has not one drop of Trakehner blood". Perhaps he's not a Kisber Felver either, but AA as everyone else refers to him.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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In no way did I mean Anglo-Arab as a breed, so perhaps I should have said TB/Arabian?
Ah, now we are on the same page!  I still would debate the "primarily" aspect, and "TB/Arabian" still implies a cross of only two breeds in one individual, which is not the case--very few TB/Arabians have been licensed to breed in the Trakehner, and none of them ARE Trakehners
On Burnus, the article is in error, just as is the spelling. Burnus was not a Trakehner; he was licensed to be used in the Trakehner breed, and given premium status also. He is listed by the Verband as Burnus AA, for Anglo Arab, which is not exactly correct, as he has a bit of the Hungarian Warmblood breeding from his dam. But the Verband only licenses Anglo-Arabs, so there is no mention of the Hungarian Warmblood. 
Though his dam was bred by the Kisber Stud, Burnus was not. But the Kisber Felver people can call him a KF, we can call him an AA (turning a blind eye to the Hungarian WB element, and considering that the second "A" is actually Shagya ), and someone else can call him something else.
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 08:44:33 PM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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Joy
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I love Trakehners!
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"And of course, they are Trakehners"...I meant to say that our TRAKEHNERS are Trakehners, not Anglo-Arabs. (sorry about that misplaced antecedant). This is sooo funny..trying to communicate with the written word, on the fly...and totally missing that 70% of communication that is non-verbal!
And isn't it great that the Verband did stretch the mark a little to approve Burnus! Think of the wonderful horses that never would have been....including Windfall. Whew!
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