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Topic: Linebreeding (Read 2245 times)
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Heidi
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Posts: 31
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Beiing busy with adding some stallions and doiing some "hypomating" on Delmar I discovered it is possible to calculate a linebreeding index there. I assume there are lines that are linebred with succes and others that were not very succesfull. 
What are your thoughts about that? 
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Eileen
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I LOVE Trakehners!
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Heidi,
I, too, am interested in doing some line breeding. How do you calculate the index to which you refer and what does it indicate?
There is a question on the forum today about how close is too close. Mayhap, you could provide some insight.
There was also a presentation of line breeding in the Mahagony lines that was given in October at the ATA meeting. There it(line breeding) was quite strongly recommended within Mahagony lines.
I am very interested in learning more.
Thanks,
Eileen
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Heidi
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It is really interesting. I am glad you bring this topic up. I had those conversations lately with a warmblood breeder that really knew a lot about linebreeding and how those ancient valuable bloodlines could influence the horse from today.
If you breed a mare to a stallion the foal will have only 50% of the genes from the father and from the mother. This goes further and further over generations and the percentage of genes from that specific stallion or mare will get lower and lower. If the specific stallion or mare has/had great quality and could pass that on offspring it can be usefull to try to raise the percentage of genes/influence in the horse you would like to breed. This can be done with linebreeding. By combining horses with the same ancestors the percentage of genes coming from that ancestor can get higher over generations. I don't know if this is well explained in English?
I think Impuls can be combined with succes, Ibikus and the combination of both. A nice example from Mahagoni linebreeding I think is the great Hofrat and his brother.
Cadeau has 3x Mahagoni and 3x Maharadascha (goiing further back). I bred a mare to him that also has Maharadascha blood over Flaneur so that will be 4x than 
There are more good linebreeding lines, I think Arogno but that in fact was a bit my question
There are also lines that seem to match well, like in Oldenburg Donnerhall x Pik Bube did and Weltmeyer X Brentano. Ibikus does well with Impuls and .... there must be more recent examples.
I use the pedigree info from Delmar http://www.dmtc.com/pedigree/allbreed/
On the left you see "hypomating". Clicking that gives you the opportunity to fill in a sire and a mare name (first adding the mare pedigree in the database). Then you can get the full pedigree (up to 9 generations) of the foal you would get using that sire on your mare. Additionally common ancestors are marked in colour.
Under the table you can click linebreeding and doiing that you get a percentage of linebreeding and you get the percentage of genes from horses that are present at least 2 times in the pedigree from the possible foal.
I hope I made it a bit clear: that is how I choose between different stallions that in my eyes would match my mare. This additional info can do a great job picking out one between all those nice ones  and it makes the breeding a bit less "gambling".
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sherry
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Call me old fashioned....We have a tremendously successful Arabian breeder here who does very close line breeding--while she has produced some spectacular successes, she has also had some spectacular failures. While line breeding can produce horses which have the best features passes along, it can also produce horses which have managed to combine those very nasty recessive genes that aren't so great. Perhaps I'm just a devout coward, but I can't afford to have a huge failure rate in the hope of getting one spectacular one--for that reason, I only breed mares to stallions with common parentage at least four generations back. Heidi--it sounds like you've done a lot of research and have become somewhat of an expert at this. I'm open to being convinced that my personal opinion is not well reasoned.....
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Jennifer
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Personally, I think its still a gamble when you breed because you can't predict which genes are going to come through in your foal.
Some line breeding may be beneficial and some may not. I've heard (this is a non-Trakehner example) that if you have too much Furioso II in your pedigree you will probably get a lot of white markings. This may be a plus or minus depending on your point of view regarding white markings.
And, I think there are only a limited number of "proven" line breeding successes that seem to beat the statistical odds. There have been a lot of Mahogoni offspring and several of his sons have been approved. So, there is a pretty large basis of horses from which you can draw some conclusion about line breeding for him. I don't think that in general you can say the same thing or draw the same conclusions about line breeding to many other stallions. That is, it doesn't necessary follow that if Stallion A appears in the third generation of your mare then it would be good thing to consider/use a stallion that has Stallion A somewhere close up in his pedigree just because then you would be "line breeding" and the resulting foal would then have a greater percentage of Stallion A. I think you have to be careful.
It just like finding successful breeding niches such as Impuls/Ibikus. It was fortunate that there were a sufficient number of offsping with these common ancenstors that it could be determined that this was a good breeding niche.
I agree that using the Delmar horse database to figure out how much line breeding you get with its "hypothetical mating" option is interesting to do! I've done it myself, and its kind of fun! It will give you percentages of inbreeding.
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Heidi
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We have a tremendously successful Arabian breeder here who does very close line breeding--while she has produced some spectacular successes, she has also had some spectacular failures.
I agree. I don't knwo there is a difference between the words linebreeding and inbreeding in english but I allways use the word inbreeding for these high risk crosses and line breeding for the safe option What's in a name of course. Inbreeding involves for me very close relatives like father/daughter or father/granddaughter etc. There the risk is that there are not enough genes from different horses and that the combination you make is combining a total of bad things (including the medical aspect). I think that is nice to produce a super now and then but how to explain that to the poor foal that has malformations etc....
In what I call linebreeding the percentages of common ancestors are low, and I don't think health is at risk than. If there would be a doubt I would not do it.
This is for example my mare crossed with Cadeau.
The percentages at the end are the amount of genes in the foal that come from that specific stallion (in theory of course, you also have mutation etc...)
MAHAGONI2 5S x 4s x 5S 3 3 (2) (1) 12.50% 4x4 12.50%
FLANEUR5 6s x 6S x 4d 3 3 (1) (2) 9.38% 4x5 7.81%*
MAHARANI II 6S x 5S x 6S x 6S 4 2 (2) (0) 7.81% 5x5 1.56%*
KARBEN 5s x 5S 2 2 (1) (1) 6.25% 5x5 6.25%
MAHARADSCHA 5s x 5D 2 2 (1) (1) 6.25% 5x5 6.25%
GRIMSEL 6S x 5d 2 2 (1) (1) 4.69% 5x6 3.13%*
5 Generation Coefficient of Inbreeding: 0.1953125%
The higher amount of Mahagoni is only because there is linebreeding to Mahagoni in the stallion. My mare doesn't have Mahagoni in her pedigree.
Here you see the influence of MAHARADSCHA will be pretty high, considering it is a stallion from the 50's. That's because he is in my mares pedigree too, so I linebreed to him.
I just write down what I find so interesting and what I've learned about it. I don't want to do statements about the do's and don't 's.
The thing that I found very comprehensive was:
If you have a mare by Arogno, she has 50% Arogno genes theoretically. If the mare is good and if Arogno really did a very good job, for example: she has very good rideability and her dam hasn't, than you would like to preserve that quality. Assuming Arogno influenced positive on the rideability, a possible foal out of that mare and a totally different stallion would only have 25% of Arogno genes. Breed this foal (later of course  ) to a stallion that carries Arogno in a 4th generation, and the percentage would raise again, and so could rideability. All very theoretically but it can keep you busy looking at pedigrees and horses  .
I think it can be of good use in trying to filter out more negative points and pronounce good things, allthough getting too related is a bad thing, I agree. Percentages should be kept low.
I do believe certain sires are more important for good performance. Looking up a few famous horses can show remarkable things and it is often that foundation sires come up in higher percentages than that is for the regular horse.
Two examples that I looked up in Delmar:
This is from Solero
(Halef is an arabian, goiing back to Fetysz, also grandfather to Mahadarascha)
HALEF 3S x 5d 2 2 (1) (1) 15.63% 4x4 16.11%
HABICHT2 4d x 4D 2 2 (1) (1) 12.50% 4x4 12.50%
HEROLD 4S x 6s 2 2 (1) (1) 7.81% 5x5 7.81%
ABFAHRT 5S x 7D 2 2 (2) (0) 3.91% 6x6 3.91%*
POSEIDON3 5S x 7D 2 2 (2) (0) 3.91% 6x6 3.91%*
KOHEILAN IV 6s x 6S 2 2 (1) (1) 3.13% 6x6 3.91%
Partout:
HIRTENSANG 5d x 4D 2 2 (1) (1) 9.38% 4x5 9.38%
GABRIEL3 4s x 5D 2 2 (1) (1) 9.38% 4x5 9.38%
HANSAKAPITAEN2 5d x 4d 2 2 (0) (2) 9.38% 4x5 9.38%
FETYSZ 5S x 6d x 6d 3 3 (1) (2) 6.25% 5x5 6.25%*
NEARCO 5S x 6S 2 2 (2) (0) 4.69% 5x6 4.69%
BUSSARD 6d x 7d 2 2 (0) (2) 2.34% < 6x6 2.34%*
6 Generation Coefficient of Inbreeding: 0.9033203125%
BTW during the same period I also read a few articles that say arabians were more suitable to add blood in combination with the possiblility to perform well, in dressage and jumping, than the thoroughbred ever did. That would lead us a bit too far I gues but I mention it anyway because (I see now) it showes accidentaly in both examples I gave.
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Karim
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The most important factor in any kind of breeding, line breeding or otherwise, seems to be the MARE FACTOR! If you do not have a mare who can stamp her foals with MOST of the characteristics you want in your next generation every single time, then you are playing dice. And then as if this was easy, you need to find a stallion that (1) you like & (2) is capable of passing his damline traits down to his foals.
In the tradition of breeding Trakehners, there seems to more emphasis put on the "mare lines" than on the "sire lines". And again it is the characteristics of the mare lines of the sire that need to be matched with the one from the dam line of the mare (As opposed to most other warmblood breeds). Hence naming the foal after the dam.
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Maren
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There are certain lines in the breed that have been found to be highly successful with line-breeding/in-breeding, to the point where you actually WNT to see that connection in the pedigree. Mahagoni is one example, Ibikus/Impuls another. The point WHY this is so successful will be hard to make. But as a matter of fact, the Impuls/Ibikus cross IS a line breeding, since Ibikus' dam is an Impuls daughter!
Same is true for all the Arogno or Marduc crosses with Mahagoni. While on first look they all appear to come from different sources (Flaneur, Halali and Pasteur xx respectively), they all carry Maharadscha in one way or another (Flaneur is by Maharadscha, Marduc's dam Madeira was by Ferlin, a Maharadscha son, and Mahagoni's dam Maharani II is another Flaneur daughter).
It is also a fact that the more often Pregel appears in a pedigree, the chances to produce a highly ridbably and competitive horse.
There are other matches I would stay away from crossing....
The mysteries and wisdoms of breeding I guess
That's why it is so much fun!
PS: Heidi, I bred my Elan xx-Mahagoni-Donauwind mare to Cadeau too!! Saw his first kids in Hörstein 3 weeks ago and was speechless!! Good luck!
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helloagain
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I need some advice. Would you breed an Enrico Caruso mare to a stallion with Avignon II (same as Arogno) as the dam sire when the dams of the mare and stallion are half-sisters? Is this too close? This hypothetical mating would all be in the same mare family. Thanks for any advice. Barb
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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If the hypothetical horses are the ones I am thinking of, you have more ancestors in common than the mare family through the two granddams. BTW, I love that mare family (if I am right...) but would be careful concentrating the breeding in terms of disposition/sensitivity. Know the "personalities" involved, especially the dam's.
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helloagain
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Thanks for the input. You, I believe, are on the right track. It's all "what if" right now, and I see I need to do some more in-depth pedigree searching. This is all new to me, but it's such fun. 
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Ele.na
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trakehner for me more than horses;this my life
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I shall state the position.
At me 25 mares and 10 stallions, that gives different opportunities for application of a line-breeding/in-breeding. And for 15 years of work I experimented very much. The most good results turn out at an inside-line cross in a degree III-III or III - IV with a supporting line-breeding/in-breeding, on to give rise the family-mare, that is on " a nested mare ".
In this case, there is a similarity to the linear stallion (Pythagoras, Pilger; Kupferhammer and other), which reaches 14 %, and also up to 30 %, the similarity with basic a line-breeding/in-breeding, by the stallion is possible.
That it gives: from negative qualities - decrease of the genetic information, and as the consequence it is probably, the foal will be the more poorly coeval-foals and will require more time and means.
From positive qualities : this foal in 90 cases from 100, perspective for sports also has good serviceability, and as a rule is very similar on of the line-breeding stallion. But the line-breeding/in-breeding, is not the basic criterion at cultivation. Very much frequently outcross of the horse more better quality, and much more healthy.
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Jim
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WHAT IS THE IDEAL (YOUR OPINION) COMBINATION OF ARABIAN / TB BLOOD IN A TRAKEHNER?
WE HAVE A TRAKEHNER MARE THAT WE ARE CONSIDERING BREEDING TO A ARAB-TRAKEHNER STALLION, WOULD THIS PRODUCE THE CORRECT DOSAGE, OR DOES IT TAKE ONE MORE OUTCROSSING?
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