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Topic: VENT! (Read 2793 times)
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Sovereign Farm
ata
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Posts: 481
KALUA by Heling
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VENT!
« on: March 08, 2002, 10:49:27 AM » |
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I just needed to vent so I thought I'd do it here (so I don't get kicked off other forums!). For all of you interested or following the thread on Enrico Caruso semen, several posts have been removed by the webmaster. Everything that is not glowing in praise for how easy mares are to get in foal has been removed. Since I myself have been through breeding to EC, I can tell you that that is not always the case. I do in fact have a mare due this year but I had to switch mares and spent thousands. The first mare caught on the first cycle to a different stallion. To any interested parties, I would do more research since the other forum appears to be biased. I really wish someone would have told ME more about EC's current breeding status before I purchased a breeding.
Heather
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fuzzy
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2002, 10:51:43 AM » |
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And yet when someone started a thread which identified and smeared a trainer on the H/J forum ( a lot of poeple had apparently had bad experience with the guy), it stood as a "public service announcement." However, when you don't do enough research, you are at risk - with trainers, breedings, boarding barns, you name it . . . . you aren't the first I've heard of with a hard time getting an EC foal, but it's not always the farm or stallion's fault.
If someone wanted to know my experience using Donnerkeil, I'd have to be honest and say it didn't go well, but also that it was the mare, not the stallion at fault.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2002, 11:08:01 AM » |
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We won't kick you off, Heather....
The purpose in starting this forum was to give everyone a place to discuss real issues candidly, and to provide an avenue for the many people who had already been banned from the "other" forum. The other forum is excellent--it is very well known and the place a lot of people look first for warmblood information. I include a link to it in every website I make.
A great frustration to me personally, as webmaster for the MWT, is not being able to communicate MWT information via that forum. You can reach so many people, but all posts on the topic are generally removed. Ditto for the MWT mailing list through Yahoo groups, which appears to be opeated by the same folks.
In that vein, please spread the word about the MWT and its website to members. There are some nifty things on there, including an image map with links for any MWT members with stallions, sale horses, or other equine-related business. I would like to set up a sales list, viewable for the public, for members to post horses on. But there is no input from the vast majority of members and I wonder if anyone ever really goes there. It has become the Glory and Heather show in the announcements, because those are the only people who send me information regularly.
Now, as to sharing opinions of stallions, etc., remember that discretion is the better part of valor. Everyone needs to refrain from making statements not supported by fact (Truth being the ultimate defense to slander & libel). Anyway, keep it clean, and just the (proven totally verifiable documented) facts, ma'am 
I have bred a mare to a stallion, twice, then had her settle with another. I cannot rule out that it was a quirk with the mare, but I wouldn't try the first guy again. It is just too expensive. Another stallion sent pretty fresh semen with low motility. It worked, but the numbers were scary, and if it hadn't worked, I would probably not try him again either.
So people who have luck with stallions that others do not, who knows. Maybe it is some kind of coordination with the tides and planets lining up or something.
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« Last Edit: March 08, 2002, 11:22:34 AM by admin »
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fuzzy
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2002, 03:48:24 PM » |
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Speaking of MWT - I will be bringing up the website at the upcoming meeting - and this forum as well. Hopefully with a little 'advertising' they will see more use . . . BTW, Ingrid, you are doing a lovely job with both.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2002, 04:56:02 PM » |
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Thanks Mary! Just hate to throw a party and have no one show up, you know what I mean?
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2002, 03:07:10 PM » |
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Since Heather now has her own young potent guy, she probably will be doing more! But it sure is a shame to not be able to use the old guys while they are available.
I have been tempted to roll the dice with EC this year too. We shall see...
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« Last Edit: March 10, 2002, 03:07:54 PM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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Suzette
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2002, 09:54:46 AM » |
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Speaking as someone who has been "banned" for quite awhile from "brand x", I certainly appreciate you doing this. I hope you are not discouraged by the lack of attendence to this forum. I believe it is because the site was down for quite awhile just as it was developing a following. It will take a while to rebuild the audience. Please do not lose patience.
I also agree that we need to have a place to openly discuss the problems that people run into when dealing with certain stallions/owners.
However, it needs to be done with a degree of restraint so as not to enflame people and end up in a lawsuit! There comes a time when even the very finest people/horses run into problems beyond control, or just plain goof up. We need to give them the benefit of the doubt.
In the same vein, there needs to be a place to give opinions and advise people of what type of problems have occured in the past, so that the problems are not repeated. It is a fine line. If people can handle it with respect, it can be done. Actual, specific negative comments should be made offline, ie, "email me offline and I will fill you in" has a bit more discretion.
I can attest to the fact that I have heard of MANY complaints from mare owners about a rather long list of stallions/owners, with a variety of issues.
Getting the reputation that you "go beyond the call of duty" to assist the mare owner is a hard thing to do, and once you have attained it , it is very hard to keep. Personally, I have bent over backwards to help whenever I can, and have even offered to take over contracts that were not fulfilled by other stallion owners, just to keep people from hating the breed as a whole.
It is a severe problem, and one that the ATA cannot help with.
Anyway, just my thoughts.. Remember, we aren't ALL bad!
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2002, 10:23:24 AM » |
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Gee, Suzette, I didn't even realize you had made the "X" S-list....
I certainly don't think that poor service/quality is a problem with all the old guys and stallion managers. It is a horrendously difficult job and I applaud anyone who does it well. From the other side of the counter, I absolutely hate dealing with PITA people when I am trying to breed a mare. Breeding is stressful and expensive enough, and I have always been able to count on having to either hunt my shipment down with fed-ex or track a package at every stop with the airlines (somehow we seem to be in a commerce black hole up here). Adding a less than bend-over backward stallion manager just about causes my hair to come out.
That said, I DO wish Meister was still shipping!
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Lisabeth
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2002, 07:38:15 PM » |
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Hey, yeah! Send a mare to Meistersinger! He needs to get a few more offspring on the ground - the one's he has have done very well in the performance arena! We need more performance horses. Suzette's farm is nice so even though you'd be driving forever you'd be leaving her in a nice environment.  Fortunately my drive with my mare was only a few hours but in many cases I think with older animals in person is the way to go.
On the other hand, when sharing information about fertility and shippability, it is important to share as many of the facts as possible about the situation to be fair. And of course signing one's name so one knows where the information is coming from.
As to MWT participation, well, it will be mentioned again in the next newsletter (in the works) but don't hold your breath.
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Suzette
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2002, 08:45:53 AM » |
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"Driving forever"? Geez, I'm not in Podunk, Iowa! (no offense, Iowanians!) It is probably about an 8 hour drive from Interlochen.
The one thing I have learned about live cover vs. AI is that, boy is it WAY less expensive to get a mare in-foal, and it sure goes a lot faster, a lot easier, and a lot less time-consuming! Not only that, but the horses are a lot happier. 
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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fuzzy
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2002, 06:02:37 PM » |
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Ingrid, if by some wild chance you want to haul one of the girls to Suzette's house, you can stop by here if you like. There is a truck camper in the yard (dry, warm, comfy) and a shower and can in the house that you are welcome to use. THere might even be some extra brewskies around the place . . . .
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Glory
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2002, 12:51:47 AM » |
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I'm still thinking about Meister also, what do you think he would cross like with a nice TB mare, she has great conformation and gaits but is a little light in body and bone. Glory
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Lisabeth
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2002, 11:31:57 PM » |
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Hmmm. The brewskis don't interest me but if we can Ingrid to trailer her mare to Meister's court I suspect we could probably wrangle a MWT meeting around the event! (I would however, bring along some hard cider if everyone intends to drink themselves silly)
Speaking of which, it turns out the McAlhaney's couldn't make "today" meeting either and Michaela was iffy as well. Kenyon came up mysteriously three legged and I would have missed it as well. Guess some things aren't meant to be!
I imagine the next meeting will be at Rolling Oaks in April or May (depending on foals) but we should try and hook up an on-line meeting before then. If anyone knows definite bad weekends for a meeting, let me know.
Still no news on awards, but we now have embroidered polo shirts which will be available for the horse fairs and through the mail very soon!
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fuzzy
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2002, 09:30:01 AM » |
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April 6th, 27th, May 11 and 12, and Memorial weekend are bad for me, and probably for several others - they are horse show dates (the May ones are USDF in MI and at Lamplight). Everything else looks wide open. Or, just a thought - what about meeting at one of the shows if enough people want to. We're all about the horses, after all! There's bound to be food there, and we can 'tailgate'. Ingrid - if we met in Stevensville, would you be able to make it?
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2002, 09:37:30 AM » |
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Hey guys, this is what I get for not following this thread. Which has turned in to anything but "VENT!", by the way. Unless "VENT!" simply means the sudden release of hot air!
We don't breed by live cover, except for Mr. Pony man here. Sorry... And a couple 16 hour round road trips is just too much--we are better off fighting fedex and doing shipped. We have no staff either, and April and May are going to be raining visitors up here, followed by a foaling. The Germans are coming on May 25-June 25.
On meetings, give me some idea of when you want an online meeting. Despite my request for desired usernames and passwords for the members only area, which was sent out at least 15 times as some of you will attest, only ONE member sent me that information! (Thank you Heather). I will set up a chat area and we will be in BIZ as long as it is not when our server is actually changing over (tried to do it last week but am not able to change due to a bureaucratic hold-up with our old name registrar. Will NEVER use them again...)
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fuzzy
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Re:VENT!
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2002, 09:47:47 AM » |
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So what info do you need for the members only site? I'll be happy to supply it . . . 
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Equine Connection
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In today's breeding technology, we have many quite sophisticated and not-too-expensive ways to confirm both the overall health of a stallion (or any horse for that matter), as well as in-depth information about the quality (or lack of) of a stallion's semen.
We have heard a lot of horror stories, and luckily, none are ours (at least based on the feedback of every client we have). Every spring BEFORE we ship any semen, we have a number of tests done on our stallion - from a complete blood work-up, CBC, to a cleaning out of the pipes, so to speak. When stallions have not bred or been collected for a number of months, it is very logical that the old, dead semen and other accumulated matter, must be purged. It takes 4-5 days of collection, and each day, the numbers and percentages significantly improve. And while the overall quantity and motility is a good indicator, it's the "progressive" motility" that really tells the story. That is the percentage of normal, forward-swimming, healthy sperm. While it only takes one, the higher the percentage of progressive, the better. And while 20-35% (some ship w/5-10%) may do the trick, 40-50+% is significantly better. I can only speak for our case, we want to know the quality of his semen BEFORE we ship to anyone to ensure continued success, and to position ourselves and mare owners for a much higher chance of success.
I do not understand that if we have all of these methods readily available to us, that more stallion owners don't do this sort of thing (I'm sure many do, but there seem to be a lot who don't). We are a small breeder and don't breed a lot of mares each year (yet), but I still feel it is my responsibility as a breeder to utilize what we have available to ensure that my stallion's semen is healthy. There are certainly a number of outside and uncontrollable factors that can affect the overall quality of a stallion's shipped semen (transportation, x-ray equipment, delays, a veterinarian's knowledge, etc., etc.), but as I communicate with quite a number of mare and stallion owners, these easy and readily available tests for semen quality are not performed as often as they should be (IMO).
Also available w/each shipment is a detailed semen analysis, so that the attending vet knows what he/she is dealing with. This reports shows the quantity (in billions), motility %, progressive motility $, extender used, etc., etc. I would much rather go through this process each and every year to ensure that our stallion is in the best physical (and mental) health possible before we ship his semen. An estimated cost to do this, plus freezing as well, is about $600-$700. BUT, I think it's money very well spent. Things change from year-to-year, especially as a stallion ages, so I think these types of services we have available to us could significantly reduce potential problems.
Many things can affect a stallion's semen, from his age, physical and mental well-being, to the handlers themselves. The manner in which a stallion is handled can make or break his success as a breeding stallion. It's a very delicate balance. So, in many cases, it is not the stallion's fault. And, as previously mentioned, problems can arise w/mares, as well.
Not venting here, just trying to provide some constructive input. As a mare owner (which I am), a viable question for owners of stallion prospects might be as to what type of testing, evaluation and reports are performed and provided with semen shipments. Is the stallion "cleaned out" each year? Also, how many "bags" or doses are provided? Many ship one bag and others ship 2. Shipping 2 bags could be more beneficial, especially if there is a question of "timing," as one could be used prior to ovulation and one used post-ovulation.
Just some "food for thought"...
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Warm Regards,
Renee & Happy Hour
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If you want to be more certain that your mare will take, I'd recommend staying with the young potent guys...
