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Topic: Barefoot Trimming (Read 6140 times)
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Eileen
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Has anyone out there tried the natural barefoot trimming?
For those of you who are unfamiliar with it, it is different than just a traditional trim given by most farriers, and also different than the Strasser trim. If you have tried it, how is (or did) it work out for you? 
It seems very logical, especially after having seen the wild horses brought in for adoption, and seeing their absolutely beautiful feet. 
Just looking for opinions.
Thanks in advance for your help,
Eileen
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Jennifer
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I'm not familiar with "barefoot trimming". Is that a particular way to trim feet that are left without shoes?
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Eileen
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Jennifer,
Yes this is a special trim for horses that are not going to wear shoes. It's supposed to be much healthier,etc. There is a website
www.barefoothorse.com
I started checking on this after I first saw wild horses just brought in and I couldn't believe their feet. They were not at all what I expected. They were smooth, short, very little heel, and when I asked where they had been captured I found it was the mountains of Arizona, New Mexico and Colorado. Then, someone recommended the Strasser trim and while searching for info on that I found this website. I've seen a couple of lectures on it now and it seems to make sense. (It may take some adaptation in our horsecare for those of us who show.)
However, most farriers seem to view it with disdain. In fact, be careful if you ask your farrier about it. I didn't know most farriers feel strongly about it, and I was just looking for info. I had been using the same farrier for years, I thought we were friends and when I asked if he knew anything about it, he just quit, didn't explain, just quit. I was a very, very regular customer. I guess they see it as a threat to their business. It need not be such. From what I've found so far, most of these practioners charge more than a regular farrier for the trim and they frequently trim more often. They also work with some vets in cases of founder, etc. so they are not limited to just trimming. It seems to be quite controversial.
Right now that's about all I can tell you, Jennifer. The website is interesting as is the book.
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fuzzy
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We're talking about the four-point trim based on researchng wild horses' feet, correct? It's a wonderful technique for horses who who don't wear shoes but still work and for founder cases. The ideas are to reduce excess chipping and cracking of the weaker sections of the foot, ease breakover, and encourage good circulation.
If you need current info on treating founder, go to www.naturalhorsetrim.com. Beware of gross pix, though. There was a really good EQUUS article on what the horse owner can do do alleviate the pain of founder/laminitis a couple months back. For those of you who don't get EQUUS, you might want to get that particualr issue. I can look up which one it was if needed.
It is interesting how some farriers can react to new ideas. I welcome them, but I know many of my colleagues have a reputation for being 'difficult' in that reguard. Good luck with finding a good new farrier to keep up your horses' pedicures.
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Eileen
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Fuzzy,
Thanks for the info and website. It looks quite interesting. Lots of links in lots of areas. I'll also try to locate the article in Equus (I don't subscribe).
Have you actually tried this trim on any horses? What do you think of it?
I appreciate your openness. I'm sure your clients appreciate your willingness to at least look at new things and discuss them. I have a vet like that. We talk frequently about new things we've heard about. It makes for a much nicer relationship.
According to the info on these websites, I should be happy for all the rocky terrain I have on my place. All these years I've viewed all these rocks as a huge pain and expensive to try to cover. or remove. Maybe I'll have to change my outlook.
Thanks again for your help.
Eileen
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fuzzy
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Eileen, yes, I do sometimes use the four-point trim. It has done a lot of good on my TB's flat front feet, and on my founder patients' compromised structures. I find it sets up a more natural wear pattern, and (if they are working or live outside) the horses can go a bit longer between trims. Unless there's a very good reason to shoe a horse, I usually try to promote maintenence of the bare foot as preferable to shoeing. I know some people think horses need shoes from the first time you get on them, or that you can't just shoe one end or the other, but I try to promote a "less is better" philosophy in tinkering with nature. Sure, I use pads and specialty shoes on occasion, but I have to have a good reason for doing so - like Navicular patients, or carriage horses who work on pavement and need traction and shock absorbtion.
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Beckie
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I just watched the farrier do this to a mule that boards on my property. The mule has hard upright donkey feet and the trim appeared to work really well on it. They reduced the tension on the bars of the feet just infront of the heel and really cupped the foot out. While I think that it works great on the mule, I am hesitant to try it on my girls because their feet are huge, flat and flairry. They also have been slightly prone to soft soles on the hard rocky gound out here and get sore if we take too much out of the center of the hoof.
So while I think that the "natural" shoeing is great, I also think that it just depends upon your horses feet. I would be hesitant to cup out my horses feet that aggressively because they just have such thin soles and those big feet just flair out. But if the horse is upright and has good walls......go for it.
We have one ranch bred western mare with GREAT FEET (hard, well shaped, tough soles) and I would not hesitate for a minute to try it on her. However, she does fine barefoot with just a "regular" trim. Everyone at my place is barefoot!!! with a little help from Biotin and some oil to keep the feet hard yet pliable.
I will say one thing about horses.....maybe you should not look a "gift horse in the mouth," but I tell people to ALWAYS look at the feet. Good feet will save you more money than any other aspect of a horse. Corrective shoeing is EXPENSIVE!!!! Thankfully, so far, I only know this from watching others have to do it. Knock on wood!!!
If you want to know more, the mule's owner would be happy to talk to you. She runs a web site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MulesOnly
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Eileen
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Beckie,
Thanks for the input. This is not the same trim i've heard about as the natural trim. The natural trim lowers the heels.
Taking out the center of the hoof if it is not dead sole is not natural trimming. The natural trim only takes away the dead part of the bottom of the hoof as it should wear naturally. The flairs are gradually removed. Natural trims encourage the horse to develop thicker and harder walls.
The website is :-
www.barefoothorse.com
Take care,
Eileen
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« Last Edit: May 20, 2003, 02:10:33 PM by Eileen »
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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From what I have read on the natural trim, the cupping of the sole is not recommended. Conversely, I think that is an absolute feature of the Strasser trim (along with making opening cuts on the walls). IMO, the Strasser system imposes a "normal" hoof shape on the horse from the very implementation of the program, and the mechanical "cupping" of the sole and opening cuts are designed to force the hoof into that shape. The idea is to encourage expansion of the hoof in all directions upon impact with the ground. While a lot of people have used and liked the Strasser method, I became wary of that program when I heard that most anticipate lameness (even lameness lasting years) and recurrent abcesses as the horse gets away from the "unnatural" influence it had been subjected to with standard trimming and shoeing practices and gets back to "nature" with the Strasser foot.
My current farrier, a good one, warns against ever cutting the sole away, as that is all that separates P3 from the ground. The wild horse will naturally shed its sole as the sole gets old, so obviously in most cases the mechanical removal of the sole is not necessary.
The natural trim people seem to follow the wild horse model more than the four point or Strasser model. Both systems tend to take more heel than my farrier does. The Strasser system actually is working toward having the bones of the foot aligned in a "harmonic curve" (convex), with P3 horizontal to the ground, rather than being in simply straight alignment, which generally does not put P3 all the way to horizontal. By definition, I think a curved alignment would require the heel to be lower than it is traditionally seen.
I think the "natural trim" was developed specifically to get away from the popular shod small, upright hoof with high and/or contracted heel that is still being seen a lot. You can find pictures online of coffin bones that have fractures to the ends from being placed in too much of an upright position. From that perspective, it makes a little sense that people would at least WANT to encourage expansion of the hoof, but I still don't think cupping the sole is warranted.
The horse's foot is a very interesting item and all I can say is I am glad I have a good farrier now!
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« Last Edit: May 20, 2003, 05:14:29 PM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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Beckie
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Wow, I guess my description was just not very good. The heels of the mule were in fact lowered and no "live" sole was removed, just enough of the dead stuff to create a nice "cup" inside of her nice roomy hoof. As I said, my girls just don't grow enough heel to ever have much of that removed, they are also naturally too "flat" to "cup." My farrier agrees with Tannenwald's, that is all that is between bone and the ground ....we just shorten the toe, check for levelness and angle and let them go. We cut off the dead sole only when it is shedding, not before and only what is shedding naturally.
The point that I wanted to make was you need a good farrier who can evaluate your individual horses' feet and needs and trim accordingly. Any farrier who doesn't look at the horse as an individual and watch it move should be considered suspect in my book. I have paid for bad farriers with months off with shoes off letting those constricted heels expand to their natural shape!
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fuzzy
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Beckie, you sound like you'd make a good farrier! Have you ever considered it? It takes a special kind of idiot (my friends tell me) to do that kind of work, but it certainly has its rewards.  You can't imagine until you've done it what it feels like to make a lame horse sound in a matter of a half hour.  I just wanted to make a quick point about the four-point trim. Its aim isn't to lower the horse's heel, but to make the horse bear weight on it and get it to grow in a more upright angle than the toe so as to have the horse's foot as much under him (not out in front like a low heeled horse) as possible for strength and balance. The thought is that the horse will grow the stronger hoof material where he takes more weight/stress (hence the thickest wall and fastest growth at the toe) and we try to accomplish that by rasping the quarters a bit shorter than the heel. It also serves to help keep the thin walls at the hoof quarters from flaring and cracking because the weight on them is diminished.
Also, I thought your observation of the mule feet versus the horse feet interesting. One thing that the books don't often tell about the differences that exist between the eqine species and hybrids is hoof conformation. The mule (even draft type) has the narrow, hard, deeply cupped hooves of the donkey and only vary rarely require shoes - many require very little hoof care at all. The hinny has the hooves of the horse side of the family - rounder, flatter, and therefore a bit more open to bruising on rocky footing. Both, unfortunately, seem to more often than not have the mind of the donkey side . . . 
BWT, have any of you got farriers in your area who have decided it's a healthy thing to trim a horse to the point of lameness/bleeding? It's someting I've only encountered in the last year or two and I think it sounds bizarre and and dangerous. Last I knew, farriers who 'quick' horses get fired . . . . Any expereince or thoughts?
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Beckie
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Fuzzy: You must be a farrier! You sure seem to know what you are talking about! Yes, that was exactly what I read from the farrier's actions. (I was actually kind of jealous that the mule grows enough heel to need to be addressed in such a way). And you are definitely right about those hooves being hard. They soaked them in H20 for a few hours before they trimmed her to make them soft enough to trim.
Thankfully, "Darla" (the mule) is a little stand off-ish but sweet and obedient. Also, with mountain lion sightings and lots of coyote in the Santa Monica Mountains, I am actually very glad to have her around because I understand that they are pretty aggressive to predators! (They -the state park service- tagged one male lion last year in MALIBU at 147 pounds!!!)
As for me being a farrier, no, I want to save my back for riding!! That is HARD work and I admire anyone with both the skill and the work ethic for it.
And while we will occasionally treat a situation "aggressively," say a deep chip from a rock that could lead to becoming uneven or unlevel, I don't know of anyone who thinks that to "quick" a horse is a good thing.....and bleeding!!! OMG!!!!
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Karim
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Just make sure you keep your mules or donkeys free of lung worm if they are kept close to your horses!
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fuzzy
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Actually, Beckie, for the most part (as with any correct lifting) it's one's legs that take the brunt of the work. The real exceptions are the arthritic critters who can't pick up the hooves high enough so I have to bend down to hold the foot with one hand and do the work with the other. A wiggly horse can yank me around a bit, but unless they're drafters (which I hate doing) it's not too bad. My back is fine after 8 years of hoof work and four in construction! Of course, maybe it helps that I'm not very tall and can get under the horses much easier then a 6 ft+ guy. My knees are another story, but those don't need to be in the best shape for most riding.
Does Darla have any sheep friends? I've heard of mules as well as donkeys and llamas being used as guard animals for sheep flocks because of their dislike for meat-eaters.
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poppycat
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I live in Europe and as far as I can tell the Strasser trim has went out of fasion. Strasser trims, as far as I can tell, are very invasive and horses are often lame and bleeding after being trimmed. IMHO this is not acceptable.
The trim I like best is taught by KC LA Pierre who used to be a farrier. I have seen a huge difference in my fillys feet since using this trim (the High Performance Trim). She no longer has bad cracking and breaking of her feet as she did with the last farrier. Her feet look lovely and I am learning to trim her feet myself. You can find out more about this trim at equinepodiatry.net
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Joy
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I've heard of lameness because of abscesses breaking through, but this is the first I've heard of Strasser trimming causing lameness and bleeding. From what I've read, that should not be the case. I do know it takes specialized knowledge, and I can readily conceive of farriers "figuring it out" on their own--and getting it wrong.
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poppycat
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No, thats not the case at all from what I've heard Joy. The bleeding caused has nothing to do with abcesses, more to do with over zealous use of a hoof knife and removing large amount of sole . There are quite a few strasser trained trimmers (not farriers) who have now gone against it and perform a very modified version of the trim which is a LOT less invasive. Also, strasser advocates keeping horses out 24/7 which many people cannot do.
The Laminitus trust in the UK specifically warns people not to use a strasser trim due to the damage they have seen done. Each to their own though, I'm sure many people are happy with their strasser trim.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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Wow, I haven't looked at this thread in a long time!
Growing opinion is that Strasser unmodified is bad. Jaime Jackson and disciples like Cindy Sullivan and Pete Ramey are more in vogue. This is a more conservative approach. In all cases, the deal is to lower the heels quite a bit in order to bring the heels to the widest part of the frog and the bones of the leg into alignment. All trimming is done to the live sole plane, all along the foot, which will produce a much shorter heel than most people are accustomed to seeing but makes a lot of sense. A lot of attention is paid to getting rid of flares and rounding the edge of the foot to achieve and preserve tightness of the white line, the connection between the laminae of the foot.
I read Beckie's post about trimming toes and winced--I had a farrier who did that for years, leaving the heels and just taking toe, and it made a bad scene--long under-run heels everywhere.
I have read a lot and have started trimming ours. One good site for a version of this trim is ironfreehoof.com, and the Ramey & Jackson books are good too. Problem with reading so much is you nit pick everything your farrier does. But there are improvements in the feet all around.
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poppycat
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lol - careful trimming those hooves yourself Tannewald. Whenever a nice horse goes past you won't be looking at its bum to see if it has a trak brand - you'll be looking at its feet instead!!!!!
I thought the webiste you posted was really interesting. I like learning as much as I can about the different methods of barefoot trimming - still think KC is best though!
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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Ack! You caught me! The "foot fetish" became so intense that I even caught myself at the gym over the winter watching how PEOPLE landed on their feet!
I do think that it is important for a horseperson to know as much about feet as they can, and it sure is handy when you can do the trimming as the horse needs it, as opposed to on the farrier's schedule. On the other hand, there are a lot of feet here 
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fuzzy
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People feet, huh? I wouldn't even go there. The numbers of us with crooked legs, and improperly balanced shoes will just drive you batty . . . . .
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poppycat
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lol - I have images of you guys walking up to people in the gym, running your hands down their leg and picking a foot up! 
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FlyingHeartsFarm
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Hi all,
I never really post on here, but I do read the board when I have time, and own a retired Anglo Trakehner mare and her weanling. I felt the need to comment on the barefoot issue  I've been learning to trim my horses since last spring. I am all for natural horse care in every aspect, but I'm especially adament about the natural trimming/lifestyle as I've seen it help a lot of horses first hand.
I want to say that the Strasser trim may not be for every horse, but in my opinion it definitely has a place, especially with the pathological cases. I have seen horses who were foundered so bad that their coffin bone penetrated through the sole of the hoof return to being completely sound. Yes, there is a lot of hard work and time, and it can be painful for the horse at times, but in my opinion working through that for a year to have a completely sound healthy happy horse is worth it! My Tk mare is foundered and a Strasser trim is the ONLY thing helping her. Also want to mention that I do not know of any cases of another natural trimmer's method healing severe pathologies like Strasser's methods seem to - if I'm wrong someone please correct me and send me the info. Anyway, I believe the only time a horse will bleed a lot or be lame for any real period of time is if they are pathological to begin with, in which case they would be lame before you even started the trim. The one time my mare did bleed (one of her first trims) you could actually see the relief in her eyes afterwards - she didn't flinch when my SHP (Strasser Hoofcare Professional) trimmed the spot that bled (it was only drops), and was more willing to put weight on that hoof afterwards - it helped relieve some of the excessive pressure. This mare was sound with shoes/pads, but I know in my heart that that isn't right...
Also, I when you first begin trimming you are very akward with a hoof knife - I have nicked 2 of my horses a few times each, and they never flinched or even cared, and it wasn't a big deal. I know a hoof bleeding sounds bad, but it really isn't as horrible as it sounds, I promise.
As far as the abcessing/lameness - yes, many horses (not all) go through the transitional period if they've been shod or poorly trimmed for a while. I know it's hard for people to see their horse be lame off and on for a few months, and for some it doesn't work financially, but you can't expect a hoof that has had little or no mechanism (expansion in the proper way when it hits the ground, contraction as it's lifted up) to not go through this period when all of a sudden the hoof starts flexing and working as it's supposed to. There was a study done, and they claimed something like on pavement a walking shod horse recieved 4 times the amount of shock/friction than a trotting barefoot horse. If anyone's interested in specifics, I can look them up. Anyway, there are so many benefits of going naturally barefoot (not "farrier barefoot") that, to me, it's very much worth everything involved. I have 4 horses, none wore shoes when I began this, but they were just farrier barefoot. The Trak mare hasn't abscessed at all, and is not excessively lame, she just doesn't extend her gaits...she is not ridden, she's in retirement. My 27 year old gelding (who had shoes, high heels, contracted heels and consequently frogs, and overgrown bars for years) is doing SO much better - his strides are much more open (he's arthritic) - he has had 2 abcesses (neither caused any lameness). I honestly believe that if I hadn't found this trim he would have been put down by now because of his former hoof pain/arthritis. The other 2 mares (who are ridden/jumped) have stayed perfectly sound the whole time with no abscessing or anything.
So, before anyone's turned off of natural barefoot because of stories about horses bleeding and abscessing, etc, please understand why those horses had those things happen, and also research the benefits of transitioning your horse to barefoot. Ok, I'm done I just get kind of worked up when people talk about going barefoot, I have kind of strong opinions about it
Shawn Ratliff
P.S. These smilies are the greatest!
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Kobau
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I didn't read all the posts. But All my horses are barefoot, Natural healthy trims, I had a farrier and he just about lamed all 23 horses in one go doing a "pasture trim". Now i Trim myself, and have seen major improvements. I have one mare that was very sore, rarely trotted let alone cantered, she is off galavanting and bucking with the group now.
Actually in all my horses i've seen changes for the better, cracks have been growing out, chipping has decreased, horses are all moving more freely and confortably. and they are growing hoof wall and sluffing old sole beatifully... I have no knowledge of Strasser or any other "named" methods... I just trim as the horse dictates it needs to be trimmed....So far it is working amazingly...
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Joy
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Kobau, what is a "pasture trim"?
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