|
Pages: 1 2 »
|
 |
|
Author
|
Topic: Using Arabian Blood (Read 1833 times)
|
|
|
TwinGates
ata
Old Hand
 Offline
Posts: 2,342
Performance Matters!
|
Sally, you forgot the ATA active stallion TF Peron's Brilliance (Peron *Pg* - TF Maverick ox). Dam is full Arab.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
acottongim
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 1,435
I love Trakehners!
|
That wasn't Sally - it was Fionna Kim. 
Oskar is 1/4 Arab. And of course Peron's Brilliance is 1/2 like Kim said.
There aren't a lot that have been presented I don't think. Joe presented an Impressionist out of an Arab mare a few years ago (Notable) and he was not approved.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lara, Gryphon Farm
ata
Gold Medallist
Offline
Posts: 291
Trakehner Cowgirl
|
Fiona,
Talk to Sovereign, they have used two full arabs in the ATA, if I remember right, several times.
Lara
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Cate
Preliminary
Offline
Posts: 87
I LOVE Trakehners!
|
Yep Sovereign have some really nice horses by Aul Magic....
Now if only I could afford to import a couple 
I think people seem to like the Arabian in the 2nd or 3rd generation (25% or 12.5%) or less. They generally aren't looking for or don't want it really close up
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Cate
Preliminary
Offline
Posts: 87
I LOVE Trakehners!
|
 in an ideal world what I would love to do is breed to ox blood and then breed those half bred back to each other to start to fix the desirable characteristics.
You see this more in the French Anglo Arabians, where they are bred to AAs rather than continually starting all over again with a first cross, you get a lot more consistency with this than you do with 1st and 2nd crosses.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Maren
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 691
The Bouncer
|
I agree, the Aul Magic ox offspring in Arizona are really noteworthy and a great promotion for that sire! I also had the great pleasure of once riding Peron's Brilliance (spur of the moment, Gala at the ATA meeting in 06). I have to be honest, he didn't appeal to me from the ground, but what a WONDERFUL ride he was. I changed my mind very quickly after getting to know him from the saddle. Starry Night here has bred to him and if I remember correctly, got a super filly (with tremendous bone!).
As for Arabs in general - the only other half ox you guys can use is indeed Brioni, (frozen, super quality). Germany has a number of ShA approved, and now three pure ox that get some attention. Frozen is the issue of course - it's usually not worth the owner's expense.
The Trakehner has been influence more by ShA and ox than AA, but the latter has the most appeal nowadays because especially in France, they're selected for jumping potential and riding horse qualities and thus fit very well. I've had super experience (breeder/owner/rider) with AA blood in the form of Matcho AA, Upan la Jarthe AA and Inschallah AA, and hopefully for 2011, Bonaparte AA. Yet I would always flock to the Shagya before I chose the AA (Bonaparte is very heavy on ShA and xx, so really a cool blend of two worlds) - the success of ShA blood is unsurpassed. Think Bajar and his sons, just to begin.
Our breed is clearly lacking the people willing to actually go that route and infuse that type of blood - as Kim says so well, everybody wants it, but nobody is willing to bite the bullet. It's a trade off, and a gamble I don't blame anybody for not taking. I'm just hoping I#m one of the lucky few next year
When you look at a horse like Brioni, who is all Trakehner type, length of leg and athleticism with an outstanding Polish Arabian dam and then you look at his offspring - long-legged, super modern horses with great versatility as sport horses - you really wonder why people are so afraid to go for blood like that. there is nothing "Arabian" in him or his offspring - at least not the phenotype we all don't want (show Arab etc).
Kudos to Heather for breeding to Aul. I think she really was rewarded!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Sean
Gold Medallist
Offline
Posts: 393
Trakehner Eventing!
|
How can we get access to Amatcho, Bonaparte and potentially others? I'll gladly risk the expense of using frozen if we can get it!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Cate
Preliminary
Offline
Posts: 87
I LOVE Trakehners!
|
I guess that is one of the problems.... people look at Arabians and think of those disgusting show Arabians which are very extreme ("hooky" necks, banana heads, tabletop backsides) and imo not much good for anything and are a parody of a horse 
Personally I like some of the working Crabbet lines we have in NZ & Aust. The Arabians that we had as kids who went to Pony Club, Evented to 3'5" and did Dressage at Lvl 3 & 4, they were riding horses first and foremost.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sean
Gold Medallist
Offline
Posts: 393
Trakehner Eventing!
|
Perhaps this is something we should be bringing up at the convention? Why not allow a breeding permit program as they do in Germany? It would allow us to bring blood in without forcing the stallion owners to go through the inspection/registration process.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Sean
Gold Medallist
Offline
Posts: 393
Trakehner Eventing!
|
Oh, and in my opinion I'm breeding for the best performer and breeding stock I can get. My hope is that eventually the success of my horses will lead to great demand. Unfortunately this will likely lead to a lot of money and time spent before I see that success!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Maren
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 691
The Bouncer
|
The way the "special breeding permit" works in Germany is: stallion must meet performance standards set by Verband (older stallion automatically must have S level success), and has to be approved already in another registry - that gives a certain idea about correctness. I don't know the exact number, but these special permits are maybe 20 / year and less. No stallion owner has any problem with that. And no, these stallion owners do NOT pay for registration with Verband, or make any claims to future inspection willingness.
However, I as the breeder, pay 155 Euro just for the permit and then another 150 Euros for the special registration of that special foal. The incentive here is: to give breeders that want to think outside the box a chance, and at the same time, NOT lose these foals to other registries. If my Bonaparte foal next year would be non-registerable Trakehhner, but I really wanted to use the stallion nevertheless, I'd go Hanoverian with it. Gain for me, loss for the Trakehner Verband. Hence, the special permit program. It makes sense all the way and frankly, if SOs had a problem with it, they'd be very short sighted.
The number of performance proven TBs and Arabs in the US is so small, there is no reason to be "afraid" of non-paid fees to the ATA. How many breeders will breed to Coconut Grove in one season? One, maybe two?? And to give you a great example why this is a grat program: the owners of Bonaparte were not going to have him presented for the Trakehner breed, although the breed director asked them to. They had paid Oldenburg and Hanover inspections in 2010 and that was expensive, given the numbers they can expect from a grey, frozen only Arabian. However, the Verband invited the stallion to the Gala Show in NMS, and filled out three special breeding permits in 2010 - owners changed their mind and will be presenting him officially in 2011. Case closed, winners on all sides.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Maren
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 691
The Bouncer
|
I also wanted to add: there is a source of performance proven Arabian blood in the ATA which is easily overlooked - Stiletto *Ps*. His grand mother is a full ox mare, bred to Abdullah (who also carries substantial amounts of ox blood close in his pedigree). Here, the Arabian sits where we want it, and it shows in Stiletto's performance and breeding success.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
horses
ata
Preliminary
Offline
Posts: 69
I LOVE Trakehners!
|
I still have the Honor Roll mare Esna at age 30. She is one of my foundation mares and she is half Shagya Arabian - half Trakehner. She was bred by Ruth Pack in Germany and stood 16.3 at maturity. She has had 13 live foals and one stillborn foal for us by Trakehner stallions. Very good competition horses. Her daughter Empress and her granddaughter Esmerelda (High Point Mare at her inspection) are in my broodmare herd. The Shagya Arabian Society has done several articles on Esna as she is the only daughter of the Shagya stallion Balaton by Gazal VII in the States. Esna is also the full sister of the stallion El Zid, the great grandsire of All Inclusive. Empress by Enrico Caruso had a colt two years ago by Fandango that I named Elton John TL. I sold him this summer to a 'S' Level Dressage Judge and she is going to continue to raise him as a stallion prospect. Of course the Arab has now been diluted but it's still in there. I hope that she will present him someday to the ATA.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Elfe
ata
FEI
Offline
Posts: 148
I love Trakehners!
|
The way the "special breeding permit" works in Germany is: stallion must meet performance standards set by Verband (older stallion automatically must have S level success), and has to be approved already in another registry - that gives a certain idea about correctness. I don't know the exact number, but these special permits are maybe 20 / year and less. No stallion owner has any problem with that. And no, these stallion owners do NOT pay for registration with Verband, or make any claims to future inspection willingness.
However, I as the breeder, pay 155 Euro just for the permit and then another 150 Euros for the special registration of that special foal. The incentive here is: to give breeders that want to think outside the box a chance, and at the same time, NOT lose these foals to other registries. If my Bonaparte foal next year would be non-registerable Trakehhner, but I really wanted to use the stallion nevertheless, I'd go Hanoverian with it. Gain for me, loss for the Trakehner Verband. Hence, the special permit program. It makes sense all the way and frankly, if SOs had a problem with it, they'd be very short sighted.
The number of performance proven TBs and Arabs in the US is so small, there is no reason to be "afraid" of non-paid fees to the ATA. How many breeders will breed to Coconut Grove in one season? One, maybe two?? And to give you a great example why this is a grat program: the owners of Bonaparte were not going to have him presented for the Trakehner breed, although the breed director asked them to. They had paid Oldenburg and Hanover inspections in 2010 and that was expensive, given the numbers they can expect from a grey, frozen only Arabian. However, the Verband invited the stallion to the Gala Show in NMS, and filled out three special breeding permits in 2010 - owners changed their mind and will be presenting him officially in 2011. Case closed, winners on all sides.
Is that permit only valid for one mare ? In other words, if person "A" gets a permit for Bonaparte for a certain year, does it mean only the mare belonging to person "A" is eligible ? Would person "B" have to request a separate permit for the same year for person's "B" mare ?
Also, how would someone in North America (mare being here) go about breeding to Bonaparte or another European Arabian or TB ? Request a permit from the Verband ?
Thanks !
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Maren
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 691
The Bouncer
|
Each permit is "case-bound". You have to tell the Verband which mare you're breeding and it's none transferrable, although I have done this a few times and never had trouble switching mares.
SInce you can't breed horses in NA under Verband rule (it's ATA territory), you cannot breed to Bonaparte or any of those and get full papers. If your mare is in Europe, then you can do whatever you please to do, and get full papers. It's really weird.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Elfe
ata
FEI
Offline
Posts: 148
I love Trakehners!
|
In other words:
If I own a mare and she is in Europe and I breed her to Bonaparte with the special permit and then import her to the US, the foal gets full papers.
If the next year, after getting the permit again, I import Bonaparte semen and breed the same mare, then the foal will not get full papers ?
I am sure there is a rationale there somewhere, I just don't see it !
Given the small Trakehner gene pool, it would seems like this should be, at least, easier if not encouraged.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Judy
Novice
Offline
Posts: 43
I LOVE Trakehners!
|
If the mare is imported to the U.S. and gives birth to the foal in the U.S. your foal would not be able to get registration papers from the Verband. You would have to ask the ATA what their policy would be for an ATA registration.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Maren
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 691
The Bouncer
|
The foal has to be BORN in Germany to receive German papers. However, if you breed with a special permit and import then, I'm sure there ATA will have to issue full papers as its governing body ruled this breeding "purebred".
That's actually a question for the ATA office, just to be sure. You never know ...
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
mustardtree
Novice
Offline
Posts: 12
I love Trakehners!
|
This is a question that the ATA Board would decide. For the ATA to issue fullblood ( ORB-A(E) ) papers to a foal, the sire must be approved by the ATA, the German Verband or one of their daughter organizations. A stallion that has a special permit by the German Verband to breed a single mare with application and increased fees is not considered approved by the German Verband and thus the ATA. If the foal is born and registered in Germany, then their papers in Germany are good with the ATA. If the mare in foal to one of these "permit" stallions is foaled in the U.S., then Board action would be needed for the ATA to register the resulting foal in anything other than the ATA Appendix. Those are the current by-laws and to deviate from a by-law requires a Board action. To date the ATA has not been faced with this kind of situation, so it would be interesting to hear the discussion at ATA Board meeting.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 »
|
|
|
|
 |
