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Topic: ATA census results (Read 3443 times)
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Sean
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Trakehner Eventing!
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Registration should be cheap for up to e.g. weaning age. Make it so cheap that nobody thinks about it twice (ASAV for example is $25, and they get 100% registration on a given crop of horses). Maybe that is less $$ in the ATA pocket right away, but thinking long term, really long term - these now registered horses, known to everybody as TRAKEHNERS, will spread the word for decades to come. Anybody interested in a motion towards meeting this end for the Annual Convention this year?
From responses it's almost as if the ATA is pricing itself out of the market. I know no one likes paying increased fees - for anything - but how do the ATA registration fees compare w/the AHHA, AHS, GOV, ISR/Oldenburg, KWPN-NA and Swiss? If dramatically disparate, then it may be time to re-examine.
I agree with this but have another point I'd like to add. I obviously have made the Trakehner my preferred breed of horse, and so have most on this board. With the exception of this group, I think that the Trakehner is looked upon as a second rate citizen by many of the people that are breeding in the above mentioned registries.
We all know that the myths about TK's are not true, just as we know that many of the stars in the other registries can be traced back to the Trakehner. Unfortunately, I don't believe the average Oldenburg/Hano/etc. breeder sees the value in our horses. This is reflected (IMO) in the sales prices, stud fees, and popularity of the other registries.
My point is that even if the ATA pricing mirrors that of the other registries mentioned, the prices are too high for the perceived value. At this point it's a question of improving the value proposition offered by the ATA or lowering prices to such a point that it becomes ridiculous not to register and inspect the majority of TK's.
I believe that a combination of the two needs to happen. Perhaps a one year "amnesty" that would allow the inspection and/or registration of TK's of any age at a sharply reduced price. Perhaps this could have a requirement that past performance and breeding history be provided to the ATA for input in to the database. This would help to improve tracking and data immediately, and with little cost, if a campaign were launched using volunteers on the phone and internet to contact the owner's of these horses. Following that year I like the idea of drastically reduced expenses for weanlings.
Secondly, the value added by the ATA is great, but not enough to justify the fees for many people. As I said, it's a case of perceived value. Maren's point about the results from the upper levels being monitored is a great one that has been discussed in the past. The year end awards, convention, newsletter and magazine are great. Unfortunately they don't add anything to the value of my horses when I market them. Increased recognition of performance success, BNR endorsements now that many have TK's or part TK's in their UL string and promotion of outstanding performance lines are three quick things that come to mind. As Trakehner breeders we recognize the champions in the bloodlines of our horses. Our top producers and performers should be promoted so that other people recognize them as they do TB sporthorse lines.
Hopefully this is taken in the constructive manner it's meant in, I certainly don't intend any disrespect!
Sean
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mustardtree
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I have read with interest all the comments on fees and "everything" the ATA should do...and have been on the ATA Board more than once. ATA does fee comparisons with other warmblood registries and our fees are comparable. The ATA has offered reduced "amnesty fees" in the past and the most recent did not bring in more registrations. The ATA Board diligently seeks ways to reduce expenses and maintain a registry that is fiscally sound. Bottom line is that the ATA can't give registrations at a fee that does not cover our registration expenses.
And yes, it would be nice to have a report of all Trakehners performing in the U.S. If the office is responsible for collecting this data, as suggested, then office staff size needs to be increased again. It goes back to budget and what the ATA can afford to do and maintain a budget. Since the majority of the ATA work is done by volunteers, this becomes a task most reasonable handled by a volunteer. Historically, different individuals have indicated an interest in doing this, but follow thorough has not happened on a regular basis.
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Sean
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I ask these questions so that I can get more information, not in the spirit of an attack or rebuttal...please don't take anything I ask the wrong way, I know all too well the difficulty of running a volunteer based organization.
When the reduced fee amnesty program was implemented in the past what type of volunteer effort was made to attempt contact with owners of uninspected mares, unregistered TK's, and past members? How recently was this program attempted?
I understand the need to cover expenses but there is certainly an economy of scale that comes in to play here. More mares at inspections reduces cost per mare for the inspection. More inspected mares means more registered members, more people to solicit for donations, a larger pool of volunteers, etc. The same would hold true for registration of foals(and what expenses increase over the years that cause the cost to register a horse to increase according to their age?)
As far as performance tracking, it's very difficult to have a volunteer attempt this. Maren is able to because of her encyclopedic knowledge of the breed and recognizes obscure bloodlines instantly. I could not attempt this without spending countless hours reviewing each horses pedigree and researching it. I believe that you would need at least a team of volunteers, perhaps one per major discipline to monitor results and report them. In order to have someone dedicate the time and effort to putting together this performance information regularly, and publishing an article as Maren has, they need to be paid. They don't need to be a full time employee, perhaps a web based writer paid per article.
I believe that both issues above come down to a question of what stimulates higher quality growth in the organization. It's a question of which school of economics and business development you believe to be accurate. Do you believe that reducing fees, improving service and adding value will improve revenues and performance of the organization? Or, is it your belief that the organization is operating with a balanced budget and should maintain status quo?
My personal belief is that any organization that does not grow organically and steadily is destined for ruin over the long term. I plan to be at the convention with my mares and foal for inspections and the meetings. I will gladly take part in any group or commitee that will address these or other issues.
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ChezRisetteFarm
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I've enjoyed reading these last few posts 
Sean, you and "mustardtree" touched a little on the ATA volunteers. This thread has been more focused on horse registration but I see no reason why these two subjects can't be talked about in tandom unless you or someone thinks we should start a new thread...
Anyway, as a 25 year member of the ATA, I remember when volunteering for a job for the organization was exciting and quite rewarding because you felt like you were contributing something to the organization and to its members. I would like to see that "spirit" of volunteering return. I think an enthusiastic "volunteer" with the personality to motivate others to volunteering their talents is what the ATA could use. So, when a need arises, the person who is aware of it has a point person to contact - a kind of "Volunteer Zar" you might say... After the contact person evaluates the need it can then be be posted on the website with the contacts information.
That said. I know there are members out there that would love to volunteer some of their time but are not sure of what "jobs" are available. Moreover, it would also be nice for the members to know who the present volunteers of the ATA are  They use to acknowledge all volunteers in either the newsletter or the magazine. Now that we have a website these volunteers should be acknowledged on a regular basis. Maybe a "volunteer of the month" corner on the website w/ a blurb/photo can be posted with "pats on the back" for these people and their hard work. Since we all can agree that the volunteers in any organization are "worth their weight in gold", this should be an ATA's priority to acknowledge these hard workers to all of its members...
So, Sean, would you be open for the job? I don't believe there is a "volunteer Zar" at the moment, is there 
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« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 05:55:31 PM by ChezRisetteFarm »
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Sean
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I agree, but I think "Volunteer Coordinator" has a less menacing ring to it than "Volunteer Czar".
I'd be up for trying to fill that role, but honestly I doubt I'd be the right person for it at this point. I am a fairly new addition to the ATA, this is my first convention in November. I don't know enough of the members, and they don't know me.
With that said, if others thought the role was necessary, and that I would be a good fit, I'd throw my hat in the ring.
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anglotrak
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The ATA is not likely to turn down a volunteer at any position! You make new friends and learn a lot when you volunteer. Will be glad to put a face with the name at the convention.
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ChezRisetteFarm
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I agree, but I think "Volunteer Coordinator" has a less menacing ring to it than "Volunteer Czar".
Quite frankly, I couldn't think of another title at the moment. Anyway, "Volunteer Coordinator" is a more appropriate title
I agree with Anglotrak. My first ATA volunteer job (way back when), I didn't know anyone and had never been to a meeting. However, there may be another job you'd feel better suited too, but I think the "volunteer coordinator" wouldn't be that time consuming once the positions are filled plus there is a big need in this area.
That said. I think I know of someone that may volunteer for "performance tracking". This persons "encyclopedic knowledge of the breed" is also right up there. They've also been members of the ATA longer than many of us. Therefore, if you decide to take the job, I'll pass their name on to you or whoever when the time comes...
Also, I'm sure Kim would help you with volunteer job descriptions. She is also articulate when it comes to writing. And, of course, some jobs would probably require more related experience than others...
Anyway, I think much more discussion about this topic will probably need its own thread. I believe Ingrid can help us with that...
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« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 11:13:34 AM by ChezRisetteFarm »
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Marcia
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This is a lively discussion with good sharing of ideas.
As the long-time numbers person, I can verify that the ATA's fees are in the ballpark with the Hanoverians, Holsteiners, and Dutch -- and that these groups are most similar to us, especially the Hanoverians. In many cases, our fees are less.
As to the fee to register, I don't see how we can go much below where we are now, as the $60 fee paid to the lab for DNA has to be covered, as well as some money to "keep the lights on" in the office and pay for publications and award programs. The DNA requirement is here to stay, as the industry continues to move farther away in time and space from the dam and sire with ever evolving technology. DNA is the only way to certify parentage. The fee schedule was set up to encourage registering foals before their first birthday, because the chances of successfully completing a registration application go down dramatically with each passing year of the horse's life. In this light, it is clear that the best hope of registering Trakehners lies with the breeders. Now, the question is, how can we make this practice more common without running the ATA out of business or making it cost prohibitive for the owner? Unfortunately, we don't have the numbers of horses or members to benefit from economies of scale like the Quarter horses or Arabians.
With the census information recently published in the magazine, in addition to the results of the member survey that will be forthcoming, I am hopeful we can use both to help us identify how we should stragegically "spend" our limited dollars and volunteer efforts to increase registrations, maintain current members and bring in new members and their horses. The Board will be discussing all of this new info at the meeting in November, and I suggest that those of you with ideas get organized and contact the relevant committee chair with well-thought-out written proposals by mid September so the Board has an opportunity to hear what you have to say.
I think one change that would be of great help to all registries across the board would be to lobby our sport organizations such as the USEF, USDF, USEA, USHJA, etc... to require horses to be registered in order to participate in sanctioned competitions as they do in Europe. Everyone would benefit, as statistics for performance by bloodlines would be meaningful and I believe more horses would get registered. This alone would increase the value of having a registered horse. Now, that said, we would still need to convince people to register their Trakehners with the ATA, and that is where the members at large can help the Board. Many of our best programs and ideas were grassroots efforts that did not originate in the boardroom.
Thanks to you all for your efforts,
Marcia Johnson
Trustee and Committee Chair
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fuzzy
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I have tried to volunteer for Trakehner stuff in the past. I got nothing but shot down. Due to lack of $$ and time, I have been out of "the loop" on a lot of things for a few years, and quite honestly, I think I like it that way. I am only a member now because I registered a horse I bred. I intend to let it lapse and not renew until/unless I register another horse in the future or get back in the show ring on a large scale and decide to chase points and trophies.
There are so many other things that I can do with $75 that I cannot justify spending it on an ATA membership instead of on goods and services that benefit me and my horses.
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Elfe
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Regarding registration fees:
1.Maybe the breeders who do not register their foals could give some input as to what changes they would like to see.
2.There is a discrepancy on the ATA fee schedule regarding geldings in the OAB-B,C,D. books.
Here:
http://www.americantrakehner.com/Forms/ATAPayFeeSchedule.htm
it states that the fee is $235 for OAB-B-D geldings of any age.
but here:
http://www.americantrakehner.com/Forms/Registration-Form-pg1&2.xls
it states that the fee for geldings OAB-A-D any age is $185.
Which is it ?
3.What is the rationale for charging more, if one of the parents is not approved Trakehner ? Does it really involve more work in the registration process ?
Wouldn't it encourage breeders not to register at all or go to a different registry ?
4. It costs $250.00 to change a horse's name. As we all know, when a horse gets sold, the new owner frequently shows the horse under a different name, which makes it hard to track the horse's show record. Charging $250.00 for name change would deter most people from registering the new name.
Just for the record, I do register my foals, even the OAB-D. geldings.
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PAL
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Hi all,
I was out looking at the AQHA web site and on the front page is an article about their registration incentive effort.
An excerpt from the article is:
"AQHA is extending its offer of reduced registration fees for horses 3 and older. Normally, the fee for registering a 3-year-old is $550 and the fee for horses over the age of 4 is $1,000. AQHA’s reduced rate is $300, and that offer is good until December 31, 2011.
If your horse is registered, but his registration certificate is not in your name, you can have that paperwork updated for only $15 per horse regardless of how many times he or she has been sold. Normally, there would be a $15 charge for every time the horse changed hands and the transfer paperwork wasn’t completed. That charge is $50 for nonmembers."
For the full article see the link at:
http://www.aqha.com/news/2010PressReleases/080410regandtransferfees.html
As to ATA documentation I agree that there are many inconsistencies in what is on the website, in different documents available for download and what is in the standing rules. I hosted an ATA inspection this year and trying to keep everything straight was a nightmare. Different phases of the inspection were referred to by different names depending on where you looked in the documentation just as an example. I went through and reworked the inspection documentation in order to make in compliance with the standing rules and then sent it to the ATA office. Not sure what they did with it, but hope they will update everything to make sure it is all consistent.
My "real" job is as a project manager for major multi-million dollar projects. So I do a lot of writing and doc review as part of it. Makes me crazy when I see this level of inconsistency in the documents being published.
Pat Leech
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« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 03:20:34 PM by PAL »
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fuzzy
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$550 and up to $1000 for QH papers?!!!! You can get broke, sound, sane horses for that price. It's insane.
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acottongim
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Regarding volunteering... Personal experience.
I am very much the type of person that is pretty vocal about things I see as a "problem" or as a light bulb moment as most of you know.  I am also one to jump in and help at anytime if asked and even when I'm not asked.
I say this because when I first started with the ATA about 6 years ago as a member I sat back and watched the first year or two. After that, I started to really just "pitch in". At the Conventions it was a matter of just lending a hand when a group would go to the ring to start setting up the jump shoot (which btw - it seems that it is always the same people that help with these mundane tasks), setting up the cones for the triangle, setting up the jump course, etc. Eventually, the things that annoyed me I started to try to think of clever (maybe lol) solutions to the issues then I would email the heck out of the appropriate person(S) and tell the prob as I saw it, the solution as I saw it and then would volunteer to help with that solution. Pretty soon I started to be ASKED to help - and I think it is because it was seen that I didn't just complain about a problem/issue but also was willing to help with that issue/solution.
I have also found that when I think of something new (such as the ATA FB page) it might take some talking, some discussion, some SHOWING what is needed/how it can help but by and large if it is a good idea it is supported. I did have to "convince" the board about doing this FB page - and now we are getting on average 300 + hits a WEEK on it, and have 534 fans (the Hannos have around 800 last I counted) and it is growing. But it was something that I thought of, implemented and now am doing pretty much completely by myself (anyone want to help?). BTW - the Hannos were the first of the WB breeds to do a FB page, we were second and now almost all of them are doing it... the other orgs have the link on their main websites we do not, all of our fans are coming from word of mouth. This is free exposure and a quick way to get news out.
I had an idea a month or so ago to have a "youth group" within the ATA - let them even have their own kind of BOD if we want where they specifically do things for the youth (which are our future). This would also be good on future resumes... When I mentioned this to someone I was told "Great idea, but it won't fly because you won't get the on going support." And that person might be right sad as it is to say. Having volunteered for the last 3 years (heavily vol I mean) I see the same people over and over doing and very few new people coming forward to help. Or they come forward to help, but with something that they are complaing about with no realistic way to help, or they say they will help and then they disappear... the list is endless.
I really really really don't mean this to be negative, but I would like those that want to help to really look at how they can help and then pitch in. I know that sometimes (and I think that this is where we are at with the ATA) when we are overwhelmed by the amount of work that needs to be done we can't see the forest for the trees so it is hard to tell someone when they come forward with a generic "can I help?" question to say "YES! I need help with xyz" Sometimes it is just "sure, jump in" and really yes, sometimes it is "I don't know" - when it is the I don't know answer that is when that person needs the MOST help. And yes, sometimes the "brilliant" idea that you have (been there done it) gets shot down for whatever reason. Instead of taking the "they are idiots" road - try and find out why it was shot down (finances? lack of help in the long run? something just scary?) and then work with it... my FB idea was shot down initially - I had to really explain what it was going to be like and why it is beneficial. But it was "scary" as it was new for some of the board members. And there was the strong fear that it would fizzle because it would get started then not kept up for lack of help...
OK, off my soap box now and really truly I don't mean this to be a negative post!!! I think that we have a lot of great people in this org - as someone told me this weekend "We are family" and I think that we are a big family! We are a small org and we have a lot of great people in this org.
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« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 08:28:23 AM by acottongim »
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Sean
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Anissa,
I've got a lot on my plate for the next two months or so, but I'd love to talk about some of the ideas you mentioned.
As we get closer to the convention maybe you can help point me in the right direction for developing proposals.
I LOVE the Youth Group idea, that could be turned in to an incredible opportunity. I envision dozens of YR's on Trakehners at Pony Club, area championships, nationals, regionals, etc...The YR's have the best coverage and influence besides the very upper echelon of riders IMHO.
In terms of volunteering, I think you're right that you have to jump in and just do it. With that in mind, I'm planning to propose the position of "Volunteer Coordinator" as suggested above and nominate myself as a potential candidate for it.
If anybody is interested in putting together proposals and would like a co-sponsor let me know, I want to dive in headfirst! (ask Kim, it's the only way I know how to do things when it comes to horses!) Also if you want to propose something or raise a point for discussion but have a bit of public speaking anxiety, talk to me...I have no shame so I'm ready to speak up for you if you need the help!
Enjoying this "conversation", looking forward to seeing it continue through the meeting!
Sean Tennant
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Judy
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I find the ATA registration fees high.
I just looked up the cost of registering a foal that was bred in Germany but born in Canada. If I understand the fee structure correctly the charge for registering my foal is $285. x 2 = $570. after I pay the $4.00 x2 fee to register my German stud book mare.
Of course I would also have to pay a fee at the bank to change my money to US funds plus the difference in the dollar.
I will not be registering this colt out of an elite German stallion with the ATA.
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mustardtree
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Fee for Appendix gelding, any age is $235 for ATA members and double for nonmembers.
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TwinGates
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I looked up the recent issue that inspired this thread. Tzigane has 12 ATA-registered offspring. Twelve. I would suspect that the low number is due to his being available only with frozen due to his performance career. I know breeders who feel that if they are going to take the risk of going with frozen that they may as well breed to a stallion competing in Germany. No one could market this stallion better than Kim Hunter. And his offspring are also competitive. Twelve. 
As Bonnie mentioned earlier in this thread; only registered offspring are mentioned in the magazine; there are several breeders who either b/c of interest (Hunters still sadly lacking in bloodline interest, so many opt not to register) or not wanting to go in Book D (3 Knabstrupper Taz foals in TX have never been registered).
That said, your point about breeding more mares in Germany than here's correct (he has 22 U.S. offspring and has covered more mares than that already in Germany). However, many factors go into this: proximity (he stands in Schleswig-Holstein), bigger focus on jumper blood right now in Germany, lack of access to his bloodlines until now (we have other sources of Rondo blood), etc.
Sean, you still have a very rare mare - one of Taz's 4 OSB-eligible daughters - who's "uncle" Showtime (Symphonie's full brother) just had a marvelous showing @ the Bundesturnier!!
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fuzzy
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I had a thought on the importance of improving the Trak's "perceived value" in the performance marketplace. If we don't care enough to document our horses' performance records and pedigrees, why would riders choose to buy into the Trak breed instead of the many others out there?
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fuzzy
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It goes to trying to get non-breeders to realize that genes matter. Breed matters. I know it does not to a lot of people, but it should. A lot of people do not register horses - all breeds have this issue - or show under names other than what's on the registration cert. It's an uphill battle that needs to be tackled by the breed registries and breeders to make it "cool" to know where good performance horses come from.
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