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Topic: ATA census results (Read 2908 times)
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Shawnda
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In the latest issue of the magazine, which you should receive shortly.
Excellent survey.
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ChezRisetteFarm
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Hummm, interesting analogy on page 34, first paragraph of this issue of the ATA magazine. However, not quite sure of its point or who wrote the article, but perhaps Shawnda knows 
Anyway, since Timotheus was one of the stallions mentioned in the first paragraph, I will talk about him. Most of the owner's for various reasons have not registered their offspring by Tim. However, I do know of two mares by him that were just recently registered (in the last month) because they are going to their approvals. My one and only mare by Tim was registered before she was a yearling, but I was also offering her for sale.
So far, none of Tim's boy offspring are registered (one will be soon when his dam is approved). Also, none of Tim's foals other than one that I know of that sold as a weanliing are for sale at the moment. So, registering these offspring has obviously been put on the back burner for now. However, when they want them approved or if they decide to sell them, they will have to be registered or at least the mares going for their approval will have to be registered. And, of course, they will pay higher fees  Unfortunately, SO's have no control over who does or who doesn't register their offspring by their stallion.
That said. I'm fairly sure that registrations are probably down across the board because of the economy right now. For some, registering their horse(s) is simply NOT a priority. Eating, paying the mortgage, and feeding ones horse(s) is the priority of the day, and has been for some time.
I hope, as we all do that not only Tim's offspring get registered at some point, but other stallions with offspring also get registered. I am sure this will be the case when the economy picks up... 
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horses
ata
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I stopped over 20 years ago registering my foals. Unless I was planning on keeping a horse for my breeding program I have always sold them as weanlings and yearlings. I supplied the necessary paperwork for their new owners to get them registered. I know for a fact that as many as 25-30% of the foals that I have sold over the years never got registered. This is especially true for the geldings. Unfortunately the competition world is not that interested in the bloodlines, only the product they see in front of them. In this country it's only the breeders that are interested in the preservation of the bloodlines. There has been a tiny shift in attitude over the last decade but it still has a long way to go before the buying public is convinced that registering their horses and being members of that registry is relevant. The same goes for the ones that I did register and then sold, as many as 50% of those new owners never transferred ownership to them. The two best examples I can state is when we sold Elstar for $112,000.00, his new owner never asked for his papers (I offered them on several occasions) until a year later when he was Grand Champion of the entire Florida circuit in Wellington and he was resold for almost 5x what we had sold him for. Then the trainer called and said "I think you told me he had some papers, could you send them to me?" I sent them right away but the next new owner didn't transfer his ownership either. I have a long time client that has bred 14 offspring over 30 years out of all of my stallions and has not registered any of them. Two of them over the years have gone on to have major Wins in Eventing at the top levels, two Wins at top levels at Groton House and the latest horse a 3/4 Trakehner pinto has had year end National Placings. A disappointment to me for the stallions but no amount of persuasion has ever got her to change her mind. As a breeder, over time, you begin to realize that no matter how you try to control your bloodlines, you can't, because you can not force people to do things they just don't want to do. I found the statistics interesting but I know that the numbers recorded do not reflect a true picture due to all the missing horses. It is somewhat different in Canada and absolutely different in Europe. In Europe and England you can't sell a horse there without his papers and his passport. We do not have these regulations here so the problem of produced and unregistered foals will continue. Now the question remains, can we as a registry ever change the public's view about registering their foals and horses. Can we with an inventive concept draw them in to being an active participant of the registry?" In order for the registry to survive in to the future we need to work together as a united team for the benefit of our beloved Trakehners to find a way to bring in a constant flow of new people, new points of view, new money and new energy
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ChezRisetteFarm
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Another breeders opinion on registering Traks...
Well said Debra...
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aquafarms
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I register all my horses now, Yet I still have a file drawer full of registations that buyer didn't want !!! Hunter folks don't want papers and most will rename the horses anyway. Has anyone ever heard of the 20yr. baby greed hunter that's on his tenth name. So registering all foals won't solve the problem it's not that simple. But in terms of getting more horses registered then a gradual scale may help , Say $50.00 from birth to 3 mos. and $100.00 from 3 mos. to 6 mos. and $185.00 from 6 mos. to a year ect. Yet a registry has to be able to bring in revenue to operate, Maybe a one year pilot program to compare.
Joe
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« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 01:38:24 PM by aquafarms »
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horses
ata
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First, I will address the statement that the problem rests with the breeder, meaning me, that the foals are not registered. I earn 100% of my living with my horses. Not an easy way to survive over the years but in order to exist you make changes over the years to help your bottom line, not registering the foals was one way to help that bottom line. Trying to survive now after the fire has been extremely challenging without my barn and income that it brought in but any way that I can be creative to do so, I will. It is not a matter of "importance" it is a matter of being able to stay in business. I would not have devoted 35 years of my life to these horses if they were not "important" to me! They are my life!!!!
We have had several "pilot programs" in the past to try to increase the registration numbers with no real sustainable results. Increasing the fees over time or trying to penalize people for not registering their foals or horses also does not work. For all the foals, mainly colts destined to be geldings, there has to be an assentive for these new owners to want to register their horses with the ATA. Year end awards, prizes and recognition for them is the best way to encourage them to want to do this. Not just recognition within the registry but recognizing them publicly in the boarder horse community. We currently have a very good awards program but the majority of people out there that are not ATA members but own a Trakehner are not even aware that it exists. Using the internet is one cost effective way to spread the word. I know that there are several people within the ATA community that are very computer savvy so maybe they could head up a committee to explore the possibility of using the internet.
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ChezRisetteFarm
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I like the idea of a "pilot program" for one year. Right now the fee to register a foal from birth to one yr is $185.00 This includes the DNA kit. If the fee from birth to 3 months is $50 what about the cost of the DNA kit?
If you recall, a few years back the cost of registering a foal was $50.00. DNA kit was extra. This was affordable.
I like the idea of incentives. But the best plan is to lower the registration fees for a period of time and/or do a two for one deal for the bigger breeders except for the cost of the DNA kit.
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JRR
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First, I will address the statement that the problem rests with the breeder, meaning me, that the foals are not registered. I earn 100% of my living with my horses. Not an easy way to survive over the years but in order to exist you make changes over the years to help your bottom line, not registering the foals was one way to help that bottom line. Trying to survive now after the fire has been extremely challenging without my barn and income that it brought in but any way that I can be creative to do so, I will. It is not a matter of "importance" it is a matter of being able to stay in business. I would not have devoted 35 years of my life to these horses if they were not "important" to me! They are my life!!!!
oh dear, I do seem to be incredibly maladroit in expressing my thoughts without pissing people off.
I thought I had explained that 'you' was a general you, not a specific 'you'.
One does what one has to do and your personal situation is entirely your business. I doubt anyone looking at your website, which I have done many times, could doubt that you are a committed breeder.
Let me rephrase
If we, as breeders, do not register our stock, then, as has been pointed out, no one else will. For whatever reasons.
So, surely the best placed persons to register stock are breeders, hence it seems logical to make this as painless as possible?
I cannot but think that a Registry cannot make informed decisions about its future/the future of the breed if the data it collects is at best incomplete and at worst, completely misleading. You know what they say about computer programs - rubbish in, rubbish out. We have to change the input.
I like the idea of a 5 yr pilot program of low cost foal registrations. I also like the idea of breeders and stallion owners making a concerted effort to educate buyers about what having a registered Trakehner means/is attractive.... in terms of recognitions/incentives of some sort... I would like to see a concerted marketing campaign supported by, spearheaded by, the ATA - Buy Trakehners! - while Totilas and Matine (for example) are still in the public memory.
I don't envy the organization. 900 odd (active) members isn't a huge number, and spread over such distances too.
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Juniper Ridge Ranch
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lpinson
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Though I am new to Trakehner breeding, and will register all Trakehner foals whether for breeding purposes or not, I am forced to consider another option I have seen adopted by other breeds...
Would it not be an incentive to stallion owners to have more registered offspring?? Perhaps if the registration fees were milder (such as suggested, $50, or even $100) would no stallion owner consider covering these fees by having them included in the stud fees?
I've seen this with Arabian stallions, as well as some Am. WB stallions... just a thought... Maybe I'm out of line for even suggesting this, but if we really want an accurate census of the Trak breed maybe this would be of benefit.
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ChezRisetteFarm
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No, I don't think you're out of line by suggesting that the registration fees be "milder" (affordable). I think if this was the case, the orgainization would see more horses registered. So, my suggestion is to write a letter to the board with your ideas/request. Perhaps you could direct your letter to Joe as he sits on the board and responded to this thread with the idea of some kind of "pilot" program to compare.
Again, eligible Trak mares will have to be registered if they are going to be inspected for OSB/PSB approval. Geldings, probably not as many as we'd like to see for obvious reasons. The rest of the Trak population, it will be up to the individual breeder and their circumstances if their personal or sale horse(s) are registered. As for me, all horses I've sold in the past have left my farm registered. All Traks I currently own are also registered.
Bonnie
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« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 11:33:26 PM by ChezRisetteFarm »
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Elfe
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How about stallion owners giving breeders an incentive to register their foals ?
For instance, a rebate on the stud fee, once the offspring has been registered ?
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Beckie
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Sometimes, registering your foals is less important than other financial priorities, like paying this year's stallion fees. I used to register all of the foals when the fees were cheaper, but now I wait to see if a sale horse will take it's papers with it. We as an organization have to work to make that paper MEAN something to the new owner. Then there will be a better incentive for the breeder to register foals.
However, I really like the idea of $50 for 0-3 months etc. I used to wait to geld colts for the cheaper rate even if I waited 2 years to register. Now the fees are so high, I make other priorities (also, being our first year on the farm, there are LOTS of other priorities....) Do not like the idea that the stallion owner should be involved. They have enough administrative stuff to do with the stallions and are already fee-ed out, IMO.
Cannot wait to see the article, but just wanted to put my two cents in.
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PAL
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Hi all,
I have been thinking about the issue of registrations and I think it is more complex than just registration and transfer fees. I think it is more a problem with total cost of ownership of a horse.
For example:
Let's say that I am an Adault Amature who rides and shows at the local/refional level. I want to be competitive so I go looking for a horse and find a really nice registered Trakehner gelding in my price range that I think will be competitive. I show him at 4 - 5 shows a year and win some local classes and year end awards from my regional organization.
Due to cost constraints, I don't join USAE or USDF or ATA because none of those memberships are needed to achieve my goals. If I want to transfer the papers, I have to pay the non-member fees to do so or pay the yearly membership dues and then the membership transfer fees. I have no incentive to do either as ATA does not recognize scores or results except at the national level (USAE/USDF) and having a gelding removes the need to have papers for breeding purposes.
The same conditions apply to mares and stallions that are owned by individuals who just want to show a little bit each year and to those who do not show at all and just want a really nice horse to ride.
So the question becomes how can the ATA keep track of these horse and increase the registration and transfer of papers. What AQHA did was to specify a time period, one year I think, where transfers and registrations were done at the cost of $25.00 with no membership or DNA kit requirement. They also did mailings to the last know owner letting them know about the program. Something similar could be done by ATA using the USAE and USDF and Eventing organization data bases to find all of the horses listed as Trakehner.
Thoughts? 
Pat
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Maren
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Yet, the exact opposite of all your suggestions is true, right? Wasn't there a note some time ago that registering an adult Trakehner past the age of 5 or 6 is now over $400?? What kind of incentive is that for the next new owner of a Trakehner?? Assume the person never had one and is not an ATA member, and the horse is not registered, so now we expect that new owner to happily pay over $400 to register a horse with the ATA, for what exactly?? Think horse is gelding, what for? The awards?? Hardly. Oh, I know .... for the right to send in your own super performance results (I'm talking FEI level) because nobody else cares to do it for the newly found member? Tongue in cheek of course!!
I think the idea behind this was to make breeders register their horses in a timely manner. However, is that the backfire of the century or what? I couldn't believe it and I also partially hope I got it all wrong.
I agree with you here. Registration should be cheap for up to e.g. weaning age. Make it so cheap that nobody thinks about it twice (ASAV for example is $25, and they get 100% registration on a given crop of horses). Maybe that is less $$ in the ATA pocket right away, but thinking long term, really long term - these now registered horses, known to everybody as TRAKEHNERS, will spread the word for decades to come. Anybody interested in a motion towards meeting this end for the Annual Convention this year?
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TwinGates
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Registration should be cheap for up to e.g. weaning age. Make it so cheap that nobody thinks about it twice (ASAV for example is $25, and they get 100% registration on a given crop of horses). Maybe that is less $$ in the ATA pocket right away, but thinking long term, really long term - these now registered horses, known to everybody as TRAKEHNERS, will spread the word for decades to come. Anybody interested in a motion towards meeting this end for the Annual Convention this year?
From responses it's almost as if the ATA is pricing itself out of the market. I know no one likes paying increased fees - for anything - but how do the ATA registration fees compare w/the AHHA, AHS, GOV, ISR/Oldenburg, KWPN-NA and Swiss? If dramatically disparate, then it may be time to re-examine.
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Eileen
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A good discussion -- not only about the registration itself, but how to make it mean something -- how to make more people proud to own a registered Trakehner.
I'm not certain that we should compare ourselves to the other warmblood breeds and maybe not even to the Arab or Quarterhorse, Tb, etc. They are all competitors for the horse owner/buyer's dollar. I'm not saying that we can't use good ideas from them -- no sense reinventing the wheel.
But maybe some thinking outside the box -- good reasons to get people to look at our horses, want them and want to register them.
We, as an organization, don't have the dollars to make a big impact promotional campaign -- at least paid advertising -- is there another way?
Maybe a contest with some nice reward(s) for good idea(s) that prove effective? Maybe something that could be announced, promoted, etc.?
I enjoy these discussions, how can we make them effective?
Just thoughts, and maybe not good ones.
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JRR
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APHA registration is $25 plus $60 for a foal DNA kit. If it's a solid/breeding stock then it is $15 plus kit. APHA are currently running a registration incentive http://www.apha.com/pressroom/2008/08_registrationincentive.html
AHA - Arabian - it costs $35 to have your horse's registration issued in your name - that includes membership, if I recall correctly. The registration certificate is sent to AHA by the seller, signed by them, at no cost. Foal registration is at a sliding scale starting at $100 for the first 6 months. You also get a seriously glossy magazine every month with a fashion feature.....
A small Registry is Welsh, WPCSA - $40 to register a foal. Transfer fees are $25 and there are penalties if not done within 3 months - $15, I think - transfer must be done by seller
ATA fees are comparable with OldNA/ISR - $150 plus DNA kit $60 - however, you also have to pay $30 (may have been $40, I forget) for activating your mare in both the year she is bred and the year she foals.
One other point to consider is also the cost of inspection. In addition to the ATA fees the ATA does not pick up the tab for the host facility. At the Colorado inspection that tacked on another $65, plus stall fees (which were $35 if I recall, but we didn't have to pay them as no one used the stalls). And then the inspection fee ($200?) and then the fee to issue a new certificate (was that $75?). It all adds up to a lot of money, which in poor economic times just isn't doable along with foal registration fees.
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« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 08:55:05 PM by JRR »
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Juniper Ridge Ranch
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Sovereign Farm
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I hope there will be more comments on this as well. The last research I saw comparing ATA prices to other American Warmblood registries indicated that the ATA registration prices were quite fair. Especially considering we do not pay mare licensing fees for both the year of breeding and the year of foaling as some of the other registries require mare owners to do. We are also (at least in the past have been) the ONLY registry that allows stallion owners to donate a breeding to the ATA SSA auction instead of paying the annual stallion activation fee. In other registries, stallion owners have to pay (quite often a much higher licensing fee) whether or not they choose to donate a breeding to their registry's auction.
The fee schedule on the ATA website lists weanling registration at $185 ($235 for those by unapproved sires) including the DNA kit. In the scheme of horse ownership, that sum doesn't seem very much out of line. It costs nearly that to keep them in feed, supplement, bedding, farrier, etc every month. Charging fees such as $50 for foals registered in the first 3 months of their life wouldn't even cover the DNA... Unfortunately we do not have the huge numbers of horses that the Arabians or QHs do to lower the prices dramatically and still cover the costs associated with what the members want.
I encourage everyone to locate the most recent financials in your ATA newsletters... take a look and see where you think the association can raise revenue/lower costs and still be a financially viable organization. Take a look and talk to a board member. Give them feedback and ideas. Keep in mind that feedback is awesome but logical, well thought out, attainable ideas for improvement are even better. When I was on the board, there was plently of feedback but hardly any constructive ideas to go along with it. We are an organization of volunteers, so along with the criticism volunteer to help be the solution!
As far as registering horses, I register all the horses I breed. To me, that is part of my business. As someone else said, if it isn't important to me, it's hard to impart the importance of papers to the buyer. Not sure if it is still so, but when a person buys a Trakehner for the first time, their first year membership is free. They get information on our Awards and Futurity throughout that year in the magazine, newsletters, website. Unfortunately if the horse was never registered, the buck pretty well stops there. How is the ATA supposed to know that a non-registered Trakehner was sold? It does take some responsibility on the breeders/seller part. How often do those people that sell unregistered horses give EVERYTHING to the buyer so that they can register the horse? I can tell you firsthand that it rarely happens. Those that sell non-registered Trakehners, do those people forward contact information for the new buyers to the ATA office? I hope so! At least the office could then send them information and contact them to give them the option of registering the horse.
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acottongim
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Also, a small point to remember when looking at fees and inspections etc. I "think" that the ATA is the only one (or one of only a couple) of warmblood registries that do not REQUIRE you to have your foal inspected also their first year.
I'm not saying that the fees are too high or just right but oftentimes there are "hidden" type costs (like foal inspections or activation fees for mares etc) that should be added into the mix.
I am with Heather - from personal experience, you can challenge the BOD about something or have an idea, but you need to back it up with a concrete solution also in order to help make the change. If you don't like the way something is being done by all means think of ways to creatively and economically fix the problem with a well thought out plan and present it to the BOD. I've found that they do listen and are open to suggestions. But you can't say "I don't like the price of xxx and think you need to lower this cost." and have the BOD come up with the solution. Give them something to work with. To change the cost of registration you will need to know what the costs are to the ATA for registration (office overhead, dna kits, even just ink/paper) then go from there to present a realistic proposal.
Personally, I do register all of my horses as well and I tell people when they buy one of my horses that they do get the free one year membership (and you'd be surprised at how much of a selling point that is sometimes - esp for point chasers that want that pretty award at the end of the year as silly as it may sound). Would I like it to be cheaper? Of course! Do I have a solution? Not off the top of my head. 
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