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Topic: Please (Read 1976 times)
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stoicfish
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I love Trakehners!
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Please
« on: February 12, 2010, 02:20:56 PM » |
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http://uncouthbb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=19998#199
I think it is a good opportunity to give some information about the breed here. I respect others opinions but I also believe that since this is a public forum it is responsible to bring the other side into view. People read this "stuff" and if they do not have another frame of reference, they tend to accept that one opinion. I think it would be a great disservice to the Trakehner to allow the topic to be one sided.
I would never advocate personally belittling someone, just stating facts to help others with forming their own opinions.
I know there are some of you that are taken back by those statements, as you are breeders (of really nice horses) so here is a chance to put out information to others that may also be looking at the Trakehners.
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JRR
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Re: Please
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2010, 03:31:14 PM » |
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Well I chimed in.
What I do find interesting though is that we have had minimal discussion of the article *here* - on the Trakehner forum itself. Do Trakehner breeders not care about a) the article b) internet forums c) random Trakehner owners d) the breed or e) is everyone busy doing other things (like are all in Germany supporting Taz)?
TC, for all you might dislike what she says or her "internet personality", is a hunter/jumper breeder who very much has her finger on the pulse of the market. She knows what will sell, and that's tight knees and lifted cannons over a jump.
Go and watch the videos of David Beatty's boys and tell me what you see. Hirtentanz and .... the Heops son... sorry his name is escaping me... have great form. The other two? Not so much, in my opinion.
Believe me, I have a vested interest in seeing the Trakehner breed being a desirable choice for the public, but the public only see high profile horses. If, as Tom believes, we're never going to see another high profile Trakehner jumper, then we need to make sure our dressage horses and event horses are the best there are. That's not going to be possible if we don't keep/preserve the jumping lines we have and actively try to improve them.
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Juniper Ridge Ranch
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Garland
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Re: Please
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2010, 05:41:23 PM » |
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Has this mare been inspected? In my opinion, an inspection would give the mare owner lots of information that she could use to select an appropriate stallion. A mare can have the best bloodlines and not be an athlete herself (and even if she is, she's not proven so you don't know what traits she will pass on).
Is the mare a good jumper with excellent form? Does she have a performance record? I think this should also be considered since she will contribute her own strengths and weaknesses, including temperament and rideability which are also very important.
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stoicfish
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Re: Please
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2010, 07:49:40 PM » |
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I have nothing against TC or her horses. As far as her opinions, I would always support her in her ability to express them, even if I do not agree. Just to be clear.
It would just be nice to have some more long term Trak breeders weigh in on the subject. It is not like discussions like these do not come up among long term breeders, but usually the information has a wider scope because of the experience.
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StarryNight
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Re: Please
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2010, 07:34:49 AM » |
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I do not have access to this board, however, I am curiuos.
TrueColors talks of her stallion and his jumping form. Which makes me want to ask, where can we see her stallion jumping. What sport and level is/was he competing? I ask this question as she is providing her stallion as a comparision and want to take a look.
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acottongim
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Re: Please
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2010, 07:41:41 AM » |
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She has videos of him posted on her website (the links are to youtube). Go to her website: http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/ and go to the stallion page.
As for the mare - no she is not inspected/approved according to the registration lookup. The DAM is approved PSB so if this mare is inspected she would be OSB.
Just realized that it WASN'T her website... sorry, have corrected it and the above link is her website.
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« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 08:20:36 AM by acottongim »
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aquafarms
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Re: Please
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2010, 06:52:53 PM » |
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There are some posters that I won't touch with a ten foot pole and I think that is why few breeder responded. If I could register on ucouth I would just love to ask old tom to critique that jumping video of her stallion. And that mare is just average at best and certainly not a rare gem. "please" There is no way I would breed her to any of my guys !!
Joe
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stoicfish
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Re: Please
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2010, 12:53:11 AM » |
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I am not that familiar with the hunter world. I do know you can use very talented jumpers/dressage to make a hunter. But when horses are just bred for hunters- what does that give you? (besides hunters) Do they translate well into the 3 main disciplines?
Honestly if the foal I bred could do a 1.6m course I wouldn’t care if he jumped ass-first. Is there a danger in breeding something that jumps “attractively” instead of high, wide and fast? Is it another halter class?
(It really is a question to those that are more familiar with the sport and the horses)
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StarryNight
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Re: Please
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2010, 12:26:38 PM » |
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OK, I went to the site of the poster and watched the videos
Is Guaranteed Gold the stallion she is refering to as the 'jumper' with proper form? As to posting in these type of forums is much like banging your head against the wall. It's a waste of time and hurts. I agree with Joe, that would make for interesting reading 
Of course the other red flag, I don't see the mare as being part of the equation in the stallion selection.
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RockHill
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Re: Please
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2010, 02:16:05 PM » |
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Having read both threads and others particularly focused on the "Trakehners can't jump", I am left confused. I am new to the Trakehner breeding world and I try to read everything I can and learn from those with more experience. So I personally don't understand why it is that "Everyone knows that Trakehners can not jump."
I look around and see many Trakehners doing very well in competition over fences. One of the reasons I really like my Trakehner mare is how athletic she is over fences. So I am hoping for clarification on this stereotype because thus far I have only been able to ascertain that Trakehners do not always have style the the hunter ring prefers... I am asking this question here though so that if I am entirely wrong I'll be corrected politely. Thanks 
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acottongim
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Re: Please
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2010, 02:39:17 PM » |
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RockHill (welcome by the way)... I think you have hit the nail on the head. It isn't that "everyone knows TKs can't jump" it is they don't (generally) jump like HUNTERS.
This am I started this whole long thought about my upbringing and riding TKs over in Germany and the way we wanted them to jump etc vs the hunter world that I rode in over here in the States. There is a difference and I'm not saying one is right or wrong or better than the other it is just what you want for yourself. :-)
I personally like a horse that is round, athletic, and talented over the fences. I am not as concerned about how high the knees get. The front end is important - if the horse can't snap those legs up they could pull a rail and topple the fence with horse and rider - but I look at how the WHOLE horse goes over the jump. I see some horses that can yank their knees up to their eyeballs but they are splinter bellied and don't have any bascule over the fence - to me that is just as bad as a horse that is very round and bold over the fence but their knees aren't as high is to a hunter rider... Does that make sense?
David Beattie's horse, Hirtentanz, is one of the best jumpers I've seen in a while - I would love to ride him over some jumps. He is round, forward, eager, explodes off the ground, is economical with himself, etc. An ATHLETE. Is his form "perfect" no prob not for a hunter.
I do think that the hunter world would be surprised though how many half or full tks they have amongst their ranks...
And look at Storyteller (Heinzelman) he was a GREAT hunter horse and full TK.....
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Elfe
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Re: Please
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2010, 02:55:07 PM » |
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Having read both threads and others particularly focused on the "Trakehners can't jump", I am left confused. I am new to the Trakehner breeding world and I try to read everything I can and learn from those with more experience. So I personally don't understand why it is that "Everyone knows that Trakehners can not jump." I look around and see many Trakehners doing very well in competition over fences. One of the reasons I really like my Trakehner mare is how athletic she is over fences. So I am hoping for clarification on this stereotype because thus far I have only been able to ascertain that Trakehners do not always have style the the hunter ring prefers... I am asking this question here though so that if I am entirely wrong I'll be corrected politely. Thanks
It's a stereotype, for sure.
First of all, compared to TB's and warmblood "registries" the Trakehner "breed" is much smaller in numbers. Consequently, there will be comparatively fewer numbers in any discipline. Until somebody comes up with a statistic where percentages are compared there is no way to make a meaningful comparison.
In regards to the above referenced threads, TC seems to be wanting to breed a jumper but then requires the stallion to jump like a hunter and claims that Trakehners do not jump with the style required for hunters.
I'll leave to somebody else the task of listing all the successful Trakehner jumpers. Keeping in mind that hunters, as a discipline, does not exist in Germany and that therefore Trakehners were not bred for that purpose, these are the stallions that I have found in North America who either were successful hunters themselves or produced successful hunters. I am sure I missed a few, since I only spent a few minutes going through the ATA active and inactive stallion list.
Abdullah, Advocate,Donaufuerst,Glenn Livit, Hennessey,Inamorato,Malachi, Pajou,Platinum vom Rappenhof,
Prelude by Mozart,Prinz Habicht,Aberdeen,Avignon II,
Enrico Caruso,Harper,Larazzi,Laiken,Schoenfelder,Schoenfeld,
Zauberklang,Zarr.
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JRR
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Re: Please
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2010, 02:59:31 PM » |
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Welcome, Rockhill fellow new breeder!
I struggle too with understanding where the stereotype comes from. One the problems of not have been breeding Trakehners for more than 5 minutes (which is my case) is that I don't know 'where the Trakehner went wrong' or why. Everyone refers to it, but it isn't something researchable.
My perception is that Trakehners were bred in the US initially a bit like Arabians.... faddish... and for beauty not brains.... so they got reputations, much as Arabians do, of being hot and stupid. Now that's not going to get you any where in the hunter ring, where style and calmness is all. So not being hunters = not being able to jump. And the biggest market in the US is for hunters. There is a whole 'nuther argument about if hunters could actually, you know, hunt. Which makes me wonder how many people would choose to take a show hunter hunting or a Trakener? Does it mean Trakehner breeders should breed show hunters if they want to make money? Or stick with breeding horses that come the Revolution, we can trek to Canada on? I don't know the answer to this.
The other thing is that half Trakehners at upper levels (or actually at any levels) don't get recognised as such - they're always registered something else. With an open stud book, such as Oldenburg, you can absorb a good crossbred and make it part of your breeding stock. That's not possible with the Trakehner, closed, stud book. In addition, Trakehner people don't seem to blow their own trumpets as much as other registries. LOL
Sorry to ramble. I've been reading all the Neuminster reports in order and all the Muenster stallion show reports and my brain is whirling. Right now I feel confused and very unsure of what my breeding goals should be.
On a happier note, Tzigane (who *can* jump!) was apparently fantastic at the stallion show. So, yea! Go American Trakehners!
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Juniper Ridge Ranch
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aquafarms
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Re: Please
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2010, 03:13:04 PM » |
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On the ucouth forum she asked for someone to point out a trakehner that was a good hunter will someone point out Storryteller AKA Heinzelmann *Pg* he erned his performance gold designation in the working hunters 18 to 35 division he was the top hunter in 2002 or 2003 and produced the good hunter son Asher. and for her request to point out a trakehner that jumps in the form of Rox Dene, I would ask her to name a horse of any registry that has or had the form of Rox Dene as she is considered the standard, Ask her how her stallion compares to the great Rox Dene.
Joe
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« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 03:42:20 PM by aquafarms »
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RockHill
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Re: Please
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2010, 10:47:58 PM » |
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Thanks for all the welcome I find my way here via your website Anissa so thanks for the link.
I appreciate all of the additional insight as it makes more sense to me then a blanket "Trakehners can't jump."
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acottongim
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Re: Please
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2010, 10:50:40 PM » |
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LOL Well doubly welcome then! Glad I could be of help!!! 
Guess I should go and see who it is I'm welcoming! LOL - your farm name didn't register with me until now! Can't wait to see your new t'bred!!!! Are you bringing any of your lovely ladies to Jax for inspection?
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« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 10:53:44 PM by acottongim »
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RockHill
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Re: Please
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2010, 11:04:27 PM » |
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To funny Anissa! I have nominated both of my TB girls for inspection (need to fax the DNA releases to Claire tomorrow! Keep forgetting!) and I am just waiting to see what inspection will be easiest for me! My new girl is just to fuzzy to take pictures of yet!
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acottongim
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Re: Please
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2010, 11:07:05 PM » |
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Well, I know it is a haul for you but I hope you can bring them to Jax. I really like your one T'bred mare from the photos (as you know) and look forward to seeing the other one. Interesting bloodlines. BTW - can't wait to see your TK mare with Oskar... shoudl be very very cool!!!!
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RockHill
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Re: Please
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2010, 11:56:12 PM » |
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I am really thinking about just going ahead and going to Florida since I want to go to the convention too, and stay the whole weekend this time! So we'll just have to see
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acottongim
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Re: Please
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2010, 11:58:49 PM » |
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Well I think you should!!! Come down, stay the weekend, present your mares... it will be fun! You'll get to spend more time with everyone, see more of the stallions etc, hang out relax.... (I may put you to work too LOL).
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RockHill
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Re: Please
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2010, 08:14:49 PM » |
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Whatever I can help with I certainly will whether I am there or not! Just let me know
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