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Topic: Keeping Trakehners on Track - Tom Reed (Read 2145 times)
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Karen P.
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I always find Tom's posts well thought-out and on point. This one is no exception. As a Trak fan I have found much to love about our breed but ability to jump isn't one of them. I do think that throught the efforts of people like David Beattie and others that are breeding specifically for this trait that we are on the right track. But as a small time breeder it can be frustrating to find a stallion that is a good match for your mare that improves or even maintains their "jump"
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K
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I love Trakehners!
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I think he makes some good points and it fits with what i have noticed in recent years. In the Neumunster stallion candidate videos there seem to be more and more horses with very high set necks and a lot of knee and hock action, almost like Saddlebreds and less like jumpers. When you look at old photos of trakehners you see that some were pretty rugged-looking with strong hind ends.
I think one other way is to allow in a few select hanoverians as was done after ww2. Obviously these would be horses with a goodly amount of trakehner blood and only their foals with osb trakehners would be accepted into the main studbook.
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stoicfish
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I find Tom to be a bit one sided in his commentary. He is all about the Holsteiner. While I agree with the relevance of the closed book, loss of genetics (because of the war), and breeding for type in limiting the breed, I do not think it is proper to say that
The Trakehner breed cannot become once again a reliable producer of world-class international showjumpers: too much of the genetics have been lost or destroyed in the last few decades and it is virtually impossible to expect a thoroughbred, Arabian, Anglo-Arabian, and Shagya Arabian sire to bring modern jumping ability to the Trakehener population. While we probably will never again see Trakehners like Abdullah, Poprad, and Topki competing in the Olympics in showjumping it is absolutely vital to the breed that the Verband and breeders recommit themselves to preserving their existing jumping genetics and building on that foundation .
There are horses that are talented jumpers that are Traks. And I wonder, if Traks are 1/10th of the population of other registries and they are being bred for both disciplines, and no cross ever get accredited to the Traks, the numbers are bound to be low. That does not mean there is not quality out there. I find his comments to be backhand. I am not saying there is no truth to areas of it, but the body of his message is - there is no hope to be as good as us but you at least should try, even though there is no way to pull it off???” How is that useful?
Maybe Traks should just stay as talented all-around horses, that are able to produce the occasional extreme jumper, many good eventors and awesome dressage horses, as well as being used as successful crosses for other registries. I, personally, appreciate the nature of the Trak and the range of their talent. The rules and dimensions of equine sports is constantly changing, I think narrowing the breed genetics down to suit one sport, at a particular time is very limiting in the long run and shortsighted. Let the Holsteiner people knock themselves out breeding something that starts with C to an L. They have produced some great jumpers. They have done what Tom has suggested to the Trak breeders, narrow the family tree down as it is great as a short term goal. But very bad for a small group of animals with limited genetic input for the long run.
Here is my response- Why would Trakehners try to be a second rate Holsteiner wanna-be when they are already a first class horse in their own right?
I respect the Han people in how they have set longer term goals and the duality of their great stallions like Argentinus. (part Trak), Grannus (part Trak).
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« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 11:10:50 PM by stoicfish »
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acottongim
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Very well said stoicfish and I agree with you and what you are saying! I had a dressage breeder (of Hannos) ask me at a show "what do you breed for" when I said "athletes" she said that it wasn't possible to do. I disagree with her. I think you can breed for an all around ATHLETE that may EXCEL in one discipline, but could DO any discipline. (btw - that was about 3 years ago and she has told me recently that she understands what I meant at that time now after seeing several of my horses and agrees with me).
There are things that Tom says that are correct (I do think we got away from performance for a while and started leaning toward "pretty") but I dont' think the TK horse will "never" have another great jumping stallion/mare or the like. I think we have them now and I think there are more coming up the ranks because the majority of our breeders today are making better, more educated choices in their selection of breeding stock.
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Elfe
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If Coconut Grove is a TB, a filly by him out of an OSB Trakehner mare is eligible for the PSB book. She would have to be inspected and approved, of course. If he was approved by the ATA, i.e. presented, approved and passed the (minor) performance requirement, the foals out of OSB and PSB mares couln get into the OSB book, subject to their own inspection results.
I would always try to breed for the best horse, preferably Trakehner but if I can't find the perfect cross, I'll go outside the breed.
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Shawnda
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We waved that requirement a few years ago.
From the ATA web site:
All stallions presented for inspection will be required to participate in a Free-Jumping Test except the following stallions that qualify under the following conditions which must be confirmed by submission of performance history documentation:
Qualified Thoroughbred and Arabian stallions whose only performance discipline was racing and are retired from competition, will have free jumping and under saddle phases optional for the owner.
Qualified Grand Prix level dressage stallions will have free jumping and liberty phases optional for the owner, but not the under saddle phase.
Qualified Grand Prix level show jumping stallions and Advanced level eventing stallions will have the free jumping phase optional for the owner but not the under saddle phase.
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Sean
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Shawnda,
Am I reading correctly then that a Graded Stakes winning TB stallion would not have to be shown u/s to be considered for approval at an inspection?
Thanks!
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Shawnda
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Yes, for the simple reason that Graded Stakes winning TB stallions have NOT been trained to be shown under saddle in an arena. They have been trained for the track only, so its rather silly to expect a retired TB racing stallion to walk, trot and canter quietly in an arena. And yet we wish to have those performance genes in our Trakehners.
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Sean
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That's what I thought, you just made my day! Hopefully everyone will see a very exciting candidate in Jacksonville this year!
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Maren
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I posted a somewhat lengthy reply on Uncoth in case anyone cares.
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stoicfish
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Thank you so much Maren for adding valuable information as well as your opinion. I think overall the thread is much more valuable and balanced because of your post. Thank-you also to Tom for initiating it, as it lead to some great info.
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JRR
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Adding my thanks to Maren - I'm not on my computer so can't log in to uncouth to say it there.
Needless to say, there has been considerable discussion of this thread in private and it has not been in response to Tom's essay.
Well, that's just great. So for all the outsiders, we get to guess at what the insider breeders are saying and thinking. That'll keep Trakehners on track for sure. 
I have a mare with the lines that are worth preserving/enhancing, so this topic is of extreme interest to me. I'm a new breeder, new to Trakehners and I don't have access to a Trakehner mentor. So all I can do is look at the mareline and see what the breeders in Germany have been breeding this mareline to and trying to find a stallion with similar lines in the US. And hope that that's a reasonable way to go. Because I sure can't find any other information any other way.
The US produces 250 Trakehner foals a year - a fifth of the studbook. What percentage of those do you think are produced by people who have a nice mare and pick a nice stallion from the auction without actually really knowing if what they are doing is enhancing, or not, the breed? The answer is enough to make a significant impact on the breed.
As for apologies, I'm not going to defend TC, she's perfectly capable of doing that herself, but I *will* tell you that when I was asking for stallion suggestions for my mare, I too was warned off Horales, and no, I'm not going to say by whom. So yeah.... that's how you're losing your jumping mare lines.... by discussing it in private.
Instead of discussing 'Whither the Trakehner' behind closed doors, y'all might want to consider what effect you're having.
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Juniper Ridge Ranch
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Maren
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I do hope some more of you chime in on that forum. So far, one post since yesterday, and I'm not sure is that means we killed any subsequent dialogue (hope not) or if people actually have better things to do.
JRR, you're doing the right thing. The one part of the breeding game that so many Americans seem to have a hard time is TIME. It takes time and more time to study and learn. You're on the right track, but just know that this is a game for the decades, and you'll have to stick with it. In fact, since we never really cease to learn in this business, expect to be hung up for the rest of your life 
Re Horalas - I'm just speechless. Really. Nothing more to say than somebody needs to take a head out of the sand.
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RockHill
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I really enjoyed reading your post Maren, and like JRR I am new and trying to learn as much as I can as quickly as I can while accepting that I will never be done learning!
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ChezRisetteFarm
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Could someone please post the link  I couldn't find it on this thread.
Thanks.
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