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Topic: Interesting dellima for me to be in... (Read 2676 times)
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acottongim
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OK, The family has voted and we have opted to go forward with another breeding on Tanz this year (will be a late baby but with the breeding issues that she has had in the past I would rather breed her in the fall than leave her open and possibly not get her in foal next year). The question is to WHO??
Here are my requirements:
Trakehner - approved Verband and/or ATA
Stallion not known to produce long backs or long/weak pasterns
Stallion with excellent semen/fertility - can be frozen but good frozen.
Would like something "special" - even something outside the box.
Some of the reasons for above (and those are my ONLY requirements): Tanz has fertility issues herself - she is not the easiest to breed and I have to do a pretty serious regime to get her in foal (pooling issues). She has the tendency to put a long back and long pasterns on a foal unless the stallion is strong in those areas.
Otherwise the world is my oyster so to speak.
I've batted around (as of today) the following stallions in my mind - some of which I know enough about and others I'm not as sure about what they will/won't produce but these are what I'm thinking: in no particular order
Tambour
Zauberklang
Grafenstoltz
Kostolony
Oliver Twist or one of his sons (I've always had a thing for Singlo ever since I saw him go through the NMS approvals a few years back)
Michaelangelo
I'm drawing a blank on who else. Don't want Impressionist or Oskar - already have the Imp colt and would like a different line than the Oskar (although that would be a KILLER cross). Would LOVE to get my hands on some straight Hockey but that is prob way wishful thinking!
So who would YOU breed her to and why? Who am I missing? If you could choose any TK world wide for this very special mare who would it be? Can be dressage or Jumpers.
Some things to consider - this could be her last foal (I go into that thinking every year with my older mares and to me it is that much more of an honor/burden to pick the right stallion for the mare). She is known to produce colts more than fillies and her colts tend to be very very good. And this will make her 10th foal so she'd be an Honor Roll mare with that foal - to me that makes it that much more special.
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MillCreekTrakehner
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I'd put her to Kostolany. Has excellent frozen semen quality and is well known for shortening the back. And well, his offspring. 
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Joy
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Have you considered Tradition? Yes, he's American bred, but produces excellent foals and his first colt ever--first foal ever, in fact--was approved for breeding. I've seen several of his other offspring and they're elegant, correct, and outstanding movers.
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acottongim
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Tradition would be a bit of line breeding for sure on the dam side... the Avignon and the Tansania.  Wouldn't rule him out and I wonder what that would bring to the table... hmm.. but would rather have a bit different breeding.
But that is why I'm asking - someone might come up with something I just haven't thought of!
The Kostolony would be very interesting - I think Tanz would help with the type (LOL) and it would certainly be a moving machine...
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acottongim
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Oh, and I am BY NO MEANS opposed to American/North American breeding!!! Frankly this is the first time I'm thinking of "foreign" stallions - everything else I've bred are by stallions standing here in the US.
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TwinGates
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Here's a thought: What about E.H. Connery?
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TwinGates
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BTW, I also like the idea of Zauberklang. There is a line breed to Prince Conde (Zauberklang's 1st generation, Tanz's 3rd), but otherwise. Nice.
So . . . . Zaubertanz, eh?
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MillCreekTrakehner
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hmmmm, interesting about the testicle size thing. Would explain why Pacific has so many fillies....
Anyhow, yeah! Zauberklang. That might be an interesting option too. I like that one!
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helloagain
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I have always like Bluewood Trakehners' stallion Elfenstein.
http://www.trakehners.co.uk/
He is by Hohenstein who is by Caprimond. He has a goood mother line too. Check him out.
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Maren
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No Caprimond/Hohenstein if long back is an issue, certainly not Tambour. Second Connery, but be prepared for long pasterns (reason why his offspring are very high in demand - they're very comfortable to sit ).
Kosto: have heard not so great results from recent batches of frozen, from different breeders. Needs mare with blood and type, and does not necessarily produce close-coupled. Highly desirable on all other accounts and good name to "sell".
Michelangelo - frozen works. Make sure you're comfortable with the size of your mare, he's not going to add on it.
No frozen on Oliver Twist, but frozen on Monteverdi, yet unproven, so not for you. Best line to breed to for movement (especially canter), and outstanding backs (supple, can hold pressure, ability to collect). Probably not available though in any way you need it.
The way to get the Partout blood is through Halbgott, now available for Trakehners in the ATA, fresh cooled and in FL.
Frozen and as close to Hockey as you can get: Brioni (dam is a multiple inbred to Naftalin and Pomerantes and an exceptional Polish Arab with size and substance; sire is Friedensfürst). 100% proven frozen.
Other North American picks, second Zauberklang if you can get it, I'll throw out Blitz & Donner because his foals (including the now 3yr olds in Germany) are very athletic, wonderful modern look with short backs (if dam sire is different than Maizauber) and very correct foundations. Also the combo of either Magritte or Huno has done really well plus the blood is high in demand.
The stallion to fix any pastern is Schiffon, mostly because he can use mares that add a bit more softness in that regard and the type/conformation and movement of his offspring are pretty much proven I would say.
You may also want to talk to our own Kim here re Taz - short back for sure, pastern (in back) may be worth a dicsussion, but everything else would clearly fit the bill.
Happy hunting and best of luck - the old girls are the tricky, but most rewarding ones!
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acottongim
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LOL - I don't know if I should thank all of y'all or strangle y'all! You're giving me so many ideas and view points on various horses that I'm not sure how much is helping me or confusing me more!!! LMAO
Elfengeist would be interesting but I agree with you Maren that it may not help with the length of back.
Tanz doesn't have too long of a back herself - but she is very rectangular and I just don't want to "push" it with her. Seriously if I'm being very picky that is why I said the long back and the long pasterns. She DOES have longer pasterns and she will pass that along so I certainly don't want to go for a stallion that is also known for the long pasterns. She has a good enough engine, but if a stallion would give her a boost on that it would be a good thing. She does reproduce her front end - she is very uphill and has a very free shoulder and her foals get that too. And while she is only around 16 hh she does produce height and "modernism" with good length of leg. She will produce type/"prettyness" and will also help calm a temperament so I'm not worried about any of those type of things.
Maren - your post actually helps me eliminate some of my original choices. Thank you!
Yes, I can get the Zauberklang and I'm really leaning that way - would be something different for sure (at least for recent blood and I think she would help him in the ways that he needs it... ). Had not really thought of Blitz. I may talk to David about it.
Don't want more Marduc/Anduc etc lines (I have enough and would like an outcross from what I have) so I'm nixing Schiffon for the Marduc. (this is the only way I can stay sane is to nix a few right off the bat for simple reasons LOL).
Brioni is a different choice... plus would be adding the Arab.
What about Axis or Herzendieb??
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Elfe
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With an older mare that has clearance issues, I would not use frozen semen.
I also thought Blitz und Donner would be great, but if you don't want Marduc, I guess he would be out.
Just trying to help you narrow down the field !!!!!!
Happy breeding ! 
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acottongim
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Decision made (see I don't sit on the fence tooo long LOL)!
I'm going to try Zauberklang and hope I catch her. We'll be aiming to breed after Dressage at Devon (so early Oct).
Elfe - I know what you mean about the clearance, but the semen is good enough that it doesn't worry me too much. The clearance is managable (now that I know the trick - poor Tanz will be a pin cushion in a month) and with the right protocol the clearance is negligible. If it doesn't work then we might go for fresh with a different stallion.
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ChezRisetteFarm
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Good choice Anissa. I'll keep my fingers crossed that Tanz catches on the first go...
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acottongim
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I know where you are coming from... and I'm not going to waste time trying to get her preg with frozen. I'm going to try one or two cycles and if it doesn't work then I'll switch to fresh. But I'm fairly comfortable with using frozen and getting difficult mares preg.
I think that the cross is worth a shot and if it works then I think it will be pretty special. And who knows what next year will bring. I say it is her last and it may very well be (like I said, when they hit a certain age I treat every foal as if it was the last and hope for another one) or next year I may be in a position to do ET or she might be cleared to be bred again...
Thank you everyone for all the input and opinions - it is always interesting to see what someone else would do! :-)
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SteveSamples
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This has been great! I love that you opened this process up to us and as a result I've learned so much about different lines. On the one hand I think that making breeding decisions by committee is what led to the platypus and the giraffe, but you were very wise in the way that you filtered and processed the comments that you received.
I also think it's interesting that in the end you went with old blood. I am someone who is usually attracted to foundation bloodlines, yet I understand the argument that we should always be improving when we breed. I love your mare (of course, I have a Tycoon filly), and I think we all feel that we have a stake in the incredible foal that Tanz will have.
Thanks,
Steve +
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acottongim
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Why thank you Steve!
In the end I think breeding is about going with your gut and instincts. Yes, you have to have knowledge about what the dam/sire will bring to the party and look back to their ancestors to see what they might bring, but at the very end of the day it is a crap shoot and you just make the most educated decision that you can and go with it.
My thought process on Z was that he brings type and good engine to the party but needs a mare that will "modernize" him somewhat (Mike keeps saying he does best with a big mare or a mare that throws size) as well as needing an uphill producing mare. Tanz reproduces her uphillness as well as her very free shoulder. She also will give type and, while she herself is only around 16 hh she is throwing size (my Imp colt this year did not get his size from the sire). So we'll see. Couple that with the fact that there aren't any "young" Z foals in the US (although he did have an approved son in Germany last year I think it was), and it is an outcross for everything I have (wihth the exception of the line breeding to Prince Conde which is Tanz) I think it is intriguing.
What I find fascinating is that I got emails/phone calls from others off the board and several of the same names came up for the same sort of reasons. That tells me that I think we have breeders that are very educated and thoughtful with their breeding choices! I like also that while we got some of the "names" not all were big names - which also shows that we are a thoughtful bunch!
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helloagain
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Anissa, I am very happy with your choice and hope Tanz takes with the first try. I like the Prince Conde cross, and I especially like Zauberklang. Good stallion: needs some new representatives.
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acottongim
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uggg... my llife (various trips) got in the way of schedulinig the P and E to be able to breed her (Tanz is a great broodmare but has issues getting preg in that she pools fluid and has to be on a very specific regime to ensure she gets pregnant), by the time it got to a point that I could do the protocol etc it was so late that it made more sense to wait. So we are breeding this season (fingers crossed).
As for the Zauberklang semen, his last owner has the frozen but not sure if he is selling to the general public and if he is I'm sure it isn't cheap.
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