|
Pages: « 1 2
|
 |
|
Author
|
Topic: Trakehner Broodmares Used in Other Breeds (Read 4781 times)
|
Elfe
ata
FEI
 Offline
Posts: 143
I love Trakehners!
|
The colt is super nice , congratulations !
How does he compare to her previous foal, also a colt, I believe ?
Who has she been bred to this year ?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
acottongim
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 1,397
I love Trakehners!
|
Good post Holger and kind of what I'm meaning...
The stallions you mentioned? Those are stallions that are more "household names" (some more than others obvioiusly) with the outside the TK world. Why? Because they 1) compete at the upper levels 2) they WIN at the upper levels Because of those two facts the media publishes about those horses so people other than the ones that were at those shows know about those horses. Kudos to the owners that are willing to promote their boys in that fashion and at that expense!
I honestly believe we have that caliber of horses in NA it is just a matter of being able to get them out there.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
ChezRisetteFarm
ata
FEI
Offline
Posts: 199
|
Holger,
A stunning colt o/o an excellent Trak mare.
Best of luck with him. 
Bonnie
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Maren
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 681
The Bouncer
|
I honestly believe we have that caliber of horses in NA it is just a matter of being able to get them out there.
Where? In what density? I haven't run into a raw not-developed version of Kaiserkult/dom in the US yet.
I think what weighs down the TKs in NA is that a lot of the really nice stallions are old. And they vanish from radar screens. Windwalzer? Come on, that stallion should have covered half the ATA books ....And that is just one example.
Also, the irony of it all is that Sir Donnerhall (sorry for picking this example Holger) is really NOT a performance horse, neither is his oh so famous sire Sandro Hit. I know enough very reputable breeders in Europe that won't touch either one and many of us think the S line is nothing but a marketing game, to be forgotten in 20 years from now. Sandro Hit has won the FEI Young Horse World Championships, that's somewhere between 3rd and 4th level for a 6yr old. And then ..... nothing. Of the literally thousands of mares he's bred now, we see less than two handfuls at FEI levels, and I think exactly one at Grand Prix. Pretty meager if you ask me. It's a selling machine, a very well-oiled one. Nothing more, and nothing less. Nothing comes close to him in the Trakehner breed because simply, we lack the numbers to be hyping something like him. And the TK world traditionally is less of a foal market - even in the high times of Hohenstein the foals wouldn't sell for what the Sandro hits used to go for. It has very little to do with athletic ability or performance quality IMHO. At least not when we're talking S line.
Btw, for a healthy look at what the foal market is coming to, check out the Verband foal auctions in Germany this summer. Hanover alone is auctioning off over 350 foals in 2 days this summer - ELITE quality. You will find the handful high sellers - you will find a TON of foals that go for around 4K. And stallion quality among those. It's a bit like the lottery - we all hear about the big shots and then aspire to do the same (me included here, it's a human thing). Reality is that very few of us, if any at all, will ever break even on the horse business. Stop kidding yourselves
Unfortunately, performance does NOT necessarily translate into better sales. Hirtentanz' foals are not the auction highlights of the last years, despite his outstanding performance record. Dito on the Kaiser brothers. And what about the true international performance horses - Herzruf, Solero, Sictus offspring - sort of getting quiet there.
I think what works best right now in the foal market is probably Imperio, Axis, that kind of stuff. If you breed to sell in the foal market, this is the worst time to do it - better stop. If you breed to raise, train and sell under saddle - THAT'S where the future actually lies, you're chances are much better. Well started young horses with show experience (under saddle, not in hand) have a market now and they will have a much better in a few years from now when hopefully the economy is getting better. And that, Holger, is where Diva's Cadeau will fit right in
The only option for a good sale for the Sir Donerhall is now, as a foal, when things can get hyped about him. That's the flip side of the "outside" breeding, and again, I totally understand the why.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
hhoetzel
ata
Novice
Offline
Posts: 37
I love Trakehners!
|
I think it is more complicated. It is very difficult to make the big names in sport as easily available to breeders as stallions that show potential at the young horse shows and then make money as breeding stallions. Both are full time careers - and one will suffer no matter how hard one tries to combine both. The Oldenburger S-line is marketed well. With the numbers of mares they are breeding, I do not think Sandro Hit or Sir Donnerhall could or could have had a successful performance career.
This is a financial decision the people who stand them make. Look at Cadeau - same story, horse with lots of potential - but no way could he have covered as many mares - would he have had a dressage career.
Reg. the offspring of these stallions: They might have not produced olympic contenders (not many stallions actually do that, there' a lot of luck involved and probably few of us could ride them), but there are many good riding horses with good movements out there. And I am now talking about the S-line as well as the likes of Cadeau.
I think at one point every stallion owner in Europe has to make a decision which route to go. This is probably an advantage here in the US - since stallions have not much to do anyway, with the few mares they get to breed.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
TwinGates
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 2,210
Performance Matters!
|
Unfortunately, performance does NOT necessarily translate into better sales. Hirtentanz' foals are not the auction highlights of the last years, despite his outstanding performance record. Dito on the Kaiser brothers. And what about the true international performance horses - Herzruf, Solero, Sictus offspring - sort of getting quiet there.
I think what works best right now in the foal market is probably Imperio, Axis, that kind of stuff. If you breed to sell in the foal market, this is the worst time to do it - better stop. If you breed to raise, train and sell under saddle - THAT'S where the future actually lies, you're chances are much better. Well started young horses with show experience (under saddle, not in hand) have a market now and they will have a much better in a few years from now when hopefully the economy is getting better.
Could not agree more - esp. on what's moving now. In the past 6 mo's all 3 of my youngsters have sold or been leased to the eventing world (a white-hot market I discussed in lengthy post on Treffpunkt a few months ago), Fontana Syndikat sold their good 6yo stallion Virginian Sky to a USET team member, and I'm currently helping another eventer find a suitable youngster.
This isn't limited to the eventing world as I know two other TK owners/breeders who've sold young dressage horses recently or have prospective buyers coming to try their horses w/confirmed Training/1st-level show experience. The one thing ALL of these youngsters have in common: they're confirmed u/s with show experience or ready to show at the lower levels in their respective disciplines now.
As to how this economy is affecting other breeds, I asked Helmut what he's seeing in the OLD and HAN world. He agrees - the very top of the market (see sale of Grafenstolz to France) is always going to be active, but unless you own Grafenstolz or another proven FEI-level horse that's still young enough to compete, that's not a reality for most of us. What's selling is either the youngster going under saddle w/some show experience OR the older horse 16+ as a schoolmaster (though for lower prices than youngsters are bringing). What's changed is the "middle market" . . . buyers who used to pay $45 -$65k for confirmed 3rd/4th dressage horses (*star eventers or Level 5 Jumpers) are now looking to the younger horses. They're willing to bring one up the levels b/c it shaves approx. $20k off their purchase price.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 03:40:21 PM by TwinGates »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
ChezRisetteFarm
ata
FEI
Offline
Posts: 199
|
IMO. Unless you can sell a foal as a weanling, you should hold on to them until they are broke and going undersaddle w/ a couple of shows under their belts. However, this does not stop me from marketing them for a good price over the two plus years they are growing up in pasture.
Unfortunately, it is a risk to hold on to the youngsters but if you manage your young horses well your chances are very good they will stay sound and uninjured.
The last mare I sold had 6-7 months of training. She did a novice/training level event with a well-known trainer and then went to a top hunter trainer in Northern Calif. (Kelly VanVleck). Kelly took Tabby (Tapferkeit/Enrico Caruso) to her first real hunter show (not a schooling show) at the LA Equest. center for one week. She was Champion of her division and two people wanted to buy her so she sold to a young rider for $55K as a 5 yr old green hunter. What did I have invested in her as her breeder? Around 10K. Bottom line: She was a talented mare and trained by the best from the get go...
I personally would rather buy a younger horse from a breeder that I knew had been managed propertly and ridden by a reputable, good trainer then take my chances w/ an older horse that may have had incorrect training w/ who knows who and how many trainers along the way...
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 05:00:49 PM by ChezRisetteFarm »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Maren
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 681
The Bouncer
|
Holger, I'm not sure I agree.
Because there are plenty of opposite examples out there. Gribaldi for example - bred over 600 mares for YEARS each season (I think he topped in 2001 with 820 mares), and had a high level performance career (and has produced top performance horses galore). No, the particular "problem" of the S line is one we discussed before and too many others are doing both, competition and breeding, to show that Sandro Hit and a few (not all) of his sons have certain negative qualities while bringing other good factors to the table. But that's not the point of this discussion, and your colt is a very very good foal, no matter what. I've watched him numerous times in person now and I like him a lot.
The Rubinsteins and Donnerhalls of this world competed at the top of their game while breeding insane numbers in Europe. It is somewhat not Schockemöhle's philosophy to do that, but it has very little to do with his stallions' welfare, believe me. If he could, he would exploit them to the max in competition and breeding. He does with others.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
stoicfish
FEI
Offline
Posts: 161
I love Trakehners!
|
Just a thought, but Gribaldi is having 600 offspring a year, so how many are those are actually called Traks? I think of the phrase "Monkey see, monkey do". In other words, it's not a show some where in Europe that is going to get my attention, it is my local shows. I don't know how many times I see people on Coth ask really goofy questions about TK's. Like "are they even eligible for Hanoverian registrations?" and she meant stallions!! I am not sure all people realize these stallions are TK's or if they figure "that" one is they think it is an exception to the rule.
Here is a follow up thought. There seems to be a huge disconnect between breeders and competitors. It has been said that competitors are not aware of bloodlines and such, just about show results. So to catch their attention it has to be in their face. I think most really savvy breeders are already aware of the benefits of TK’s. But it practically comes down to selling horses to competitors (on all levels) and since they are a market that is not educated on the topic, it means Sandro Hit will do well, because it is a buzz word. If a KWPN horse wins (whose daddy is Gribaldi), they walk away thinking that KWPN are some dam good horses.
Please correct me if I am way off. This is a great place to learn things.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 08:15:28 PM by stoicfish »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Maren
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 681
The Bouncer
|
Totally valid point, stoicfish. Again, brings us back to point one and rather poor public relations from our end.
600 mares a year do not calculate to 600 foals born. More half of that. And no, majority is KWPN. Gribaldi only recently picked up breedings in Germany, he was not used a lot at all until Hofrat came along in 2001. And he's just an example.
Grafenstolz bred something around 250 mares/year in the past few years, and again, the majority are local warmblood mares. The top numbers of TK stallions IN the TK breed are around 120-150 mares/season. That is already way too many for a breed so small (Germany has appr. 1200 foals a year). but when something's hot, that's the type of number you look at.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
hhoetzel
ata
Novice
Offline
Posts: 37
I love Trakehners!
|
Wel I don’t think that arguing the great exceptions makes for an objective picture. And even statistics can be created to prove about any point. But if we would take the whole warmblood stallion population and look at how many have successful performance careers we have, I would think the number (unscientific guess) would be smaller then 5 %.
The performance career of a stallion doesn’t guarantee great foals, it creates great marketing tools for a breed. So even though a Solero might not have come up with a big number of great kids, he helped us all. He created a desire own one just like him. That’s what the great performers of any breed do.
Gribaldi is an interesting story because he became the “600 mares a year”- stallion, when he stopped being a Trakehner stallion and was widely considered to be a KWPN stallion. Sad for us but true. I also would like o know how many average - just pretty good riding horses he made. If you make enough foals there will be a “Painted Black”.
Now I think we have to separate between the stallions that create the desire to own a Trakehner and the ones that simple make great offspring. It is not always the same stallion who will do that. What is he consensus on Imperio on his first three years? Is he just a great performance horse, or is he a great sire too. (I truly hope that, I really think he is spectacular!)
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
hhoetzel
ata
Novice
Offline
Posts: 37
I love Trakehners!
|
@ Elfe:
didn't answer your questions: the previous colt by Cadeau was more substantial, bigger boned, big joints. He will be a good 17 hands when he is finished. I like the suspension in the trot, very nice. A tad long over the back. Could have a bit more butt, but with correct training I do not see an issue. Loves to jump. I might very well keep him for myself. Overall he is big (16.1 at 2 years and 4 month) for being a typical Trakehner. But Cadeau does make big horses. Has thes ame beautiful face his mother has. The new foal is more elegant more refined. From the little bit I have seen of the trot of the new baby, there is a tremendous push in the trot, very elastic. The new baby is shorter over the back, nice topline, supernice neck set, very uphill.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Maren
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 681
The Bouncer
|
Well, I don't make my own statistics and that's an old argument .
Here is one for you: no other breed in Germany has as many S-level stallions in dressage per overall stallion population as the Trakehner. And no other breed has as high an above average FN dressage index as the Trakehner. Those are facts. And they can only come through upper level performance stallions.
True, great performance does not mean great sire. But it's one hell of an indication and less of a genetic gamble. And especially we Trakehner cannot, absolutely cannot, go the route we used to (which almost destroyed the breed) of "oh well, not a performance horse, but soooo pretty".
Imperio. Has very small foal numbers on the ground, and now he is so freaking expensive I doubt much has changed. We will see his first sons coming for NMS selection this August. Nobody can say of 3 crops if a stallion is great or not. Firstly, we all differ in our observation and definition of "great", and secondly, you need some older performance offspring on the ground to really evaluate a stallion. Great? Herzruf. That is great. Imperio's official Verband foal evaluatioon however was very very good. One of the best I've read in years. Le Rouge was the same, btw.
And you're right - out of appr 450 foals a year you can expect one Totilas, but there is also a Bodyguard, a Hofrat, a Distelzar and a Painted Black, along with over a hundred S-level performance horses (TK and KWPN). Out of 1000+ mares covered by Sandro Hit, you should expect at least the same. And it's not there. And we could pick any other stallion combo if you like. This very same argument was heard many times for Weltmeyer. He bred the best of the best, over many years, in impossible numbers, yet very little surfaced at the international level. Today, Weltmeyer is well into his 20s and breeders now realize where his true potential lies. It wasn't in producing performance horses per se, it was in producing mares of such exceptional quality due to their unmatched power from behind that all the lines that lacked that part (Hohenstein, Donnerhall, some TBs, Sandro Hit) are now proving to be outstanding crosses for those W daughters. To each his own. The Hohenstein x Weltmeyer combo has lead to many very good dressage horses that have the elegance and rideability of H and the movement from W - two of them are now on the German Young Rider and Junior Rider Teams going for the European Championships right now.
Gribaldi has a very high dressage index, as does Sandro Hit. Which opens the can of worms about the worth of index systems when real competition is not counting anymore, but stallion performance tests and mare performance tests become indicators. With the new system, stallions like Argentinus dropped out of the Top 100. How in the world can that be? That pretty much sums up my personal opinion on the index system. Only one tool in a pot of many.
And one point you're missing in the numbers is that NO Trakehner can breed 450+ mares because we don't have the 10,000 mares studbook. ALWAYS put warmblood numbers into perspective here. Besides, the Donhitmeyers of this world can breed in almost every breed. Hannover has over 10,000 regi. brood mares, Oldenburg has what, 8K? Holstein, 7K, Westfalia and Rhineland almost 10K. And so on. KWPN? I don't even know. And this is only Europe, I'm not even counting the rest of the world. The 600 Gribaldi mares in Holland very easily translate into the 120 Heops/Grafenstolz mares in the Trakehner breed, no?
The current stallion roster in Germany lists 261 stallions, of which several are TBs and Arabs, others are dead and only available via frozen and so on. The list of stallions proven at the S-level and above including international FEI work reads as follows (highlights are names that breed significantly over 50 mares due to multiple registration in other books and high number in the Trakehner book): Abdullah, Abrek, Alaskatraum, Angard, Artistic-Rock, Axis, Beg xx, Bel Espace Go, Best Before Midnight, Biotop, Betel xx, Caprimond, Chardonnay, Chateauneuf, Donaudichter, El Greco, Eloquent, Farinelli, Finley M, Friedensfürst, Gluosnis xx, Gribaldi, Grafenstolz, Grand Prix, Hannibal, Heops, Hermes d'Authieux AA, Herzruf, Hohenstein, Hofrat, Hoftänzer, In Flagranti, Insterburg, Itaxerxes, K2, Kadre Noir, Kaiser Wilhelm, Kaiserkult, Kaiserdom, Karolinger I, Kapriolan F, King Arthur, Kostolany, Lambrusco, Le Duc, Lions-Club, Lichtblick, Long Deal, Lücke, Maizauber, Manrico, Mephisto, Meraldik, Michelangelo, Monteverdi, Münchhausen, Octavio, Ostermond, Ovaro, Payano, Perechlest, Peron Junior, Piccobello, Polarion, Polarzauber, Sapros, Schneesturm, Showmaster, Showtime, Silvermoon, Sixtus, Sky Dancer, Special Memories, Solero, Trocadero, Ursprung, Van Deyk and Zenit.
Please keep in mind that some of them were super heavy breeders for many years (Kostolany, Friedensfürst, Michelangelo) and have only recently dropped in numbers due to age, death etc.
Even only dropping this to M level (which is still 3rd-4th level US) will put half of the other missing names on this list.
My bottom line: I don't need an Olympic medal winner to see that a horse is a good performance horse. Years of regular showing at M-S level is really perfectly fine. And THAT can be done with the breeding business on the side, any day of the week, if the stallion owner finds it important. A horse where the career stalled at the young horse M level and then it's "too busy breeding" - always rings a bell in my head and I investigate on my own. That horse can still be a super choice for a mare, because others took the gamble and have used it excessively so that I have the luxury now of looking at offspring (Cadeau or Buddenbrock are perfect examples!!).
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
hhoetzel
ata
Novice
Offline
Posts: 37
I love Trakehners!
|
Great post Maren. You are a walking Horse encyclopedia! Reg. Sir Donnerhall, I remember Fontana Syndikat bought one out of a Laurie's Crusader mare last year. How is he developing? By the way we chose the same name - absolutely accidental - it was my son's wish.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Maren
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 681
The Bouncer
|
I did cheat on that list though ---- I don't have them alphabetically in my head  yet 
The Sir Donnerhall that Kerstin picked is heavy, very good mover, wonderful front end too. Also very different to your guy at the same age (I like the elegance of yours a lot more!). Kerstin's is in preparation for the stallion approvals in Hanover this year, his dam is really quite exceptional but even Lauries Crusador's great butt in her case couldn't make that old fashioned 90° angle croup from SD go away. I sense that Diva did a much better job in that department, and her genetics help there of course. In fact, if you tale a look at Pam Duffy's Sir Donnerhall out of her Tralehner Pregelstrand - Graditz daughter, you'll see somewhat that same look, high set neck, good shoulder and front end. And btw, that filly of hers has an impeccable temperament - first hand experience here. Super nice.
Here she is:
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
TwinGates
ata
Old Hand
Offline
Posts: 2,210
Performance Matters!
|
This is Pschezelle's daughter? LOVELY (and Jutta's photos, as always, are breathtaking!) 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
stoicfish
FEI
Offline
Posts: 161
I love Trakehners!
|
Always enjoy your posts Maren, and I learn so much!!
I wish I could help with the TK's, but I don't even know how. Can't participate as a breeder, but would be happy to volunteer. I am not sure the Canadian Tk Association would be the best place to go. Any suggestions?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: « 1 2
|
|
|
|
 |
