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Topic: Trakehner Broodmares Used in Other Breeds (Read 4772 times)
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helloagain
ata
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Posts: 622
I LOVE Trakehners!
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I was just in the COTH web site under the "who are you breeding to in 2010". It made me sad to see Trak broodmares being bred to other stallions. Not one was being bred to a Trakehner stallion. There was even a Venziano mare. That made me wince, and I sent her owner an e-mail to consider at some point breeding her to a Trak stallion.
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acottongim
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Not true.... I'm on that list as are several other TK breeders and we all have our mares booked to or bred to TK stallions...
But there ARE several TK mares that are being bred to outside stallions. It always makes me wince also. 
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helloagain
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I LOVE Trakehners!
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I guess I should have clarified my statement. It was only on the last page where I found what seemed like every other post was a Trakehner mare being bred to an outside stallion.
I saw your post earlier, Anissa, and you have a couple of new mares, Penny and Lady.
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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Easy answer - better sales. I'm not happy about it either, but as long as we an an organization are sleeping in broad daylight and do close to nothing to help our Trakehner breeders SELL in a good market we will see this happen more and more. And it takes more than offering free listing of sales on a website - it starts with promotion of our horses in competition from the bottom up so that more riders would want to have a TK vs whatever else and ends with running a sophisticated sales and ad campaign. German breeders are battling the same problem btw - we lose some of the best mares each year to outside stallions because the part-TK Hanoverian or Oldenburger sells for tripe the amount. Or at least that is what people "think" will happen .... complex problem.
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stoicfish
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I'm guilty....  bred to a Han. If it helps at all I will explain my choice. First of all it was the first time I have ever bred any mare and wanted fresh semen and a SO that was close so the costs didn't get stupid. I didn't see any Traks that were close by (Alberta). And to be honest any Traks in Canada were not as well advertised as their other breed counter parts. I want to event, or an all around horse. I saw some good dres. Traks but jumpers were harder to find. I know of them now that I did research. Traks almost need a jumper program like the Han. have, to direct people, and to increase talent. I love, love, love my mare and I am a big fan of Traks, but with other registries accepting Trak crosses and a bigger selection of stallions outside the breed it was easier to breed outside. I wish it was different. But that is a big topic isn't it.....
Thank-you Maren for your response!!
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Cate
Preliminary
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I LOVE Trakehners!
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Not that it will make you feel any better but it happens quite a bit in NZ too  Some of our best mares are not breeding Traks. And IMO there has been very little promoting Traks to the wider Public by our Assn either. Especially when we had a prime opportunity with a Trak mare being the Dressage Horse of the Year. Oh well
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Maren
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Cate, precisely my point!! The TK community worldwide has outstanding horses running at top level competition every year - and so little is done to make that fact known to the public. It takes more then dedicated volunteers to get a real marketing campaign going, unfortunately. But the questions is after all: where do you start spending your assoc. money (and I explicitly include Germany in this rant as well, we've been sleeping a deep sleep there as well). IMHO you start where the majority of members need the most help: sales. Other Verband headquarters employ professionals to run their extremely effective marketing branches. The TKs have put that job on the sideline for many years, and even the likes of Hella Kuntz, when finally hired, didn't find the support they needed to get the wagon out of the mud.
Sales - go in hand with educating your members as to what you breed and BETTER NOT BREED in order to produce something you can sell. A moose antler brand alone does not sell horses anymore - it used to, but the times have changed. Better horses - better marketing. Better horses - more TKs in competition, and hence, more recognition by the public. You get the drift ...
I do firmly believe we have better horses today than we had 15, 20 years ago, especially in the daughter assoc. I wish the trendy modern world wouldn't eradicate all jumpers, and some effort is being made in that respect, but overall, I think the movement especially has gone through a dramatic change of quality in the past 20 years. Our mares are TOP QUALITY (not all, but more and more) and other WBs are not sleeping. They snatch them up. It's mare inspection season in Germany right now, go check the list of mares selected for Rastede or other top places and you'll see where some of the best Trakehner mares in the country end up. I feel for the breeders like stoicfish and Holger who go that way - in fact I understand it perfectly. But everytime a good TK mares has a non TK foal, it does make me sad. We're too small as a closed stud book to be able to afford the loss of mares - stallions don't really matter, they can breed more and anything. Mares can't.
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stoicfish
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I would never think to suggest I know anything about breeding Traks compared to most of you, but isn't there a market for having people wanting to cross breed? I still think Maren is 100% right about the visibility issue (just found a Trak stallion in Alberta that is not listed with the Canadian Trak or Canadian warmblood, who is Elite  ), but if more people knew how successful the crossbreds and full bloods were, the demand for Trak stallions and mares would increase significantly, even if people were interested in crossing them. The Trak book is closed, and therefore change can be slow in reacting to the market or for improvement, might a cross-bred “angle” make for a really good niche in the horse breeding market?
The big issue is making sure there is enough blood and breeders available to ensure the quality of the stallions and mares continues. I would rather have the better quality than just numbers, but higher prices (value) needs to improve….that will happen when the general populations understands how important of a horse the Traks are! Not sure Traks need to be another Han, and I think there is value in what they are and how they are bred, just need better PR.
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meadowview
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I LOVE Trakehners!
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Hello there! I am a trakehner breeder located in Alberta. We have 3 approved trakehner breeding stallions (E.H. Herzzauber. Paascha MV, Feingeist and one approved Oldenburg stallion, Lampion. We have approximately 65 horses, and we breed with both trakehner and oldenburg mares. Because breeding and selling performance horses is our business, we often must respond to market trends by breeding trakehner to oldenburg. However, we are still very careful to keep our trakehner mare lines intact. The Trakehner breed is our first love, and we are happy to tell anyone who will listen about them. We show our horses and we feel that is the best advertisement. Please come and meet us some time!
Meadowview
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Elfe
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There are a number of considerations that come into play when I decide who to breed a mare to.
1.Stallion has to have a performance record.I will ease up on this requirement if he is strong on #2 below.
2.Stallion has to have produced performers. I don't usually go
 with newcomers unless they are exceptional and have a
 discounted stud fee.
3.Pedigree, physique and temperament have to complement the mare and improve on her where needed.
4.Quality of semen and the establishment that stands the stallion:
 - are they prompt and efficient in responding to inquiries,  Â
   shipping semen, doing paper work.
 - are they flexible when mares don't play by the book.
 - what do they do to promote their stallion and offspring.
- good website.
 - do they help to market my foals.
 - will they go the extra mile.
5.Does the association have visibility and do promotional work.
 Are they responsive or a PITA to deal with.
 Do they have a good website that is frequently updated.
6.I then eliminate East Coast stallions (I live on the West Coast)
 because most stallion owners need to know by 8.00 AM for
 same day shipment (next day insemination), which means my vet would have to check the mare at 4.30 AM and that gets old really fast.
 I also try to avoid frozen semen since it would involve
 sending the mare to a local equine hospital which I don't
 like doing if the mare has a newborn by her side.
Taking all this into consideration, I first look at Trakehner Â
stallions and only if my criteria are not met do I consider
other breeds.
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stoicfish
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Meadowview,
Your is the stallion I was referring to. He is BEAUTIFUL!! Where has he been all my life?  Seriously, I am not going to tell you how to run your business, but just in case this helps, and with total respect, I didn't find you till someone on a board mentioned your stallion by name which I looked up to find you. Correct me if I am wrong but your very cool stallion is not listed with CWBA or Canadian Trak? I know Canadian Trak Ass. is a whole thread in itself but I wish I would have known about you last year. But maybe you do not wish to be public and then please ignore my comments.
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meadowview
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Hmmm, well we do try to breed quality and sell quality. Our stallions are listed on the ATA website and the GOV website. We are not members of the CTHS now, but were members of that organization for many years. Two of our stallions were approved in Germany (E.H. Herzzauber and Feingeist). I guess you could say that that we are kind of private people. You can visit our website at www.meadowview.ca. The site is terribly outdated, but I hope to have that fixed now that I am retired from my "other job". Where do you live in Alberta?
Meadowview
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stoicfish
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About half way between Edmonton and Calgary. I saw your web site when I googled your boy. As far as the private thing, fair enough, just thought I would let you know in case.
But your name sounds familiar, Alberta is a small comunity at the end of the day!
And I am always amazed what I have found around this province. I found a private breeder once in the middle of nowwhere. Two older people (very nice) that had all these importated WB's. They just enjoyed them, had like 30 or more??? They also had a yak and a water buffalo from Africa.
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meadowview
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No, he was sold a couple of years ago. He has a great home, and is being used for breeding. So, we just have four stallions now.
Meadowview
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meadowview
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Okay, what is the point? We now have 4 stallions? I think I am missing something.
Meadowview
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Lara, Gryphon Farm
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Gold Medallist
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Trakehner Cowgirl
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It's helpful to go to the ata website and look under the list of active stallions. There is a location column next to their name, breeding, etc listing where they live, including Canada. That way you can scroll down the list and discover which stallions are in your area, US or Canada.
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stoicfish
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Firstly I would like to say that this mare is the only one I have ever bred. I have had my Trak for 13 years but I am not active in the Trakehner community. I thought if I checked the Canadian site, that that would tell me what is available. And that is another thread…
I am sure if I was more Trak savvy I would have known about the stallions closer to me or where to look. I was just pointing out that from the “outside” Meadows stallions were harder for me to find. And the only reason I pointed this out was to provide feedback.
Which brings me to my second point. I am not a breeder but do have my own business, and I think there can be different strategies for success. Campaigning a stallion to the general public is one, but since I have read that most stallions only get a few breeding a year I am not sure that if you factor in all of the time and effort that it really pays that well.
Controlling the quality and quantity of the offspring by using a stallion on your own mares or very select mares is another. I think that there is no injustice done to the breed using this method since that people like me are probably not going to be raising stallions or breed for essential mares.
There could be an argument about overall publicity and Traks. But I personally don’t think that any of us would like others to dictate how we should live or do business. I think that more competing horses (purbred or crossbred) and higher visibility of those horses will change things. IMO, having a closed registry is a blessing and a curse to the Traks. One of the bad things is that the Trakehner society does not recognize crossbreds(for the most part) and so if I have to get my crossbred horse registered with another registry, that is what it will be quoted as being. Really it is a logistics/PR issue. Most all the other registries allow other horses, so it gives them more public visibility and more flexibility in the purpose breeding. Not saying Traks should change, just saying that the same strategies that work for the other breeds are not going to work for Traks, and that successful marketing will look different unless the level of inclusion changes.
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 04:20:57 PM by stoicfish »
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acottongim
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It would seem that the best way to promote a breed is to show that breed. Right? I would think we can all agree on that right? I mean in the normal scheme of things if someone says "jumpers" the first warmblood breed that pops to mind is Holsteiner right? (this is in very general terms and of course does not apply to us TK people LOL). Holsteiner pops to mind because there are a lot of Holsteiners competing and being SAID to be Holsteiners (in programs, over the loud speaker, on the TV, in the ads, etc). But not only are they competing but they are WINNING. It doesn't do anyone any good for 100 Trakehners to be showing but only 1 or 2 to be doing well and winning and the rest barely making it around the course not to say that anyone is doing that but just making a point that we have to not only show our horses, but show our BEST horses and really promote that they are Trakehners.
That is going to take the cooperation of the breed organization, the breeders, the riders, the trainers, and the owners of said horses.
The riders/trainers need to be willing to be proud that they are on a TK, the breeders need to be breeding for the best, the owners need to be willing to get the best horses out in the ring, and the organization needs to recognize publicly and loudly the accomplishments of said horses.
I think we are starting to see all of those things. But it will be slow - it takes a lot to overcome myths about our breed (esp in the hunter/jumper world).
Intersting side note. I scribed for Bill Woods 2 weekends ago at a local show. I showed up wearing my ATA ball cap and he asked if I rode or breed. I told him that I did both, but I was primarily a breeder of TKs. We then talked the rest of the day in between rides about trakehners (and he likes them btw). He said that he was involved at a couple of the big/old farms when the TKs were first brought over and he knew first hand that there was a lot of hype and so forth about them but that most of the ones that came over were "not suitable" for dressage. But this was the first real push to bring horses over from Germany and so it was a "big fad". He was not impressed with the caliber of horses that came over then by and large (with a few exceptions) and he was especially not impressed with the temperaments. BUT he said that he has seen a major improvment in the horses in the last 10 years or so - esp lately. He said that NOW he is seeing the Trakehner as being a competitve sport horse.
I hope this made sense... there has been a lot on my plate lately in my personal life and I am a little drained so my mind is mush right now. Maybe someone more eloquent can translate or finsih my thought??
As for the whole promoting stallions thing - Eileen said in an earlier post that this was more of a "hobby" to her and not a profession, there is no need to pick out her website and tell her what she has already said that it was out of date.
Stoicfish - great post earlier and I agree with you. Also, not all ATA stallions are also "with" the CTA and may not be listed there (I don't have mine on their website and don't plan on doing so even though he too is now in Canada).
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hhoetzel
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I am one of the bad boys here. I bred to Sir Donnerhall (Oldenburg) -the foal is exceptionally good. This is a foal I want to sell - and dressage people love the ring of that sires name. Is he better than the available Trak Sires - I don't know that. I know that the foal is very very good. And it worked for my mare. A good horse is a good horse - and a horse that sells for a good price, keeps my wife happy. But that is besides the point. What we need in the US are the Hirtentanz, Imperios, Kaiserdoms and Kaiserkults - performance horse that will make very rider want to own a Trakehner. We don't have that, the Trak. stigma - slowly vanishing in Germany, is something I do not want to deal with her in the US, when I want to sell. Overall I feel the antler is more of a hurdle for a sale then a selling point. And I am not arguing the validity of that point, it's just a fact. Having said all that, the next one I am breeding I am breeding for myself and I am sure I will breed to a Trak stallion in 2010.
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ChezRisetteFarm
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Would love to see some recent photos/video of your foal...
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