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Topic: New ATA/Verband Agreement (Read 2429 times)
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TwinGates
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Performance Matters!
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Isn't it just fabulous that the changes were openly discussed with the active membership and voted upon. NOT!!! Hey, cannot wait to see what "the club" changed. Gee, I am SO sure that it is in My best interest as a small breeder... NOT. What does this association do for us other than publish a pretty magazine anyway?
I truly don't understand this attitude, what is it you think the ATA should be doing that they're not? This incredibly angry, disrespectful response mystifies me, but hey, I'm willing to listen to well-thought out discourse of what's wrong and suggestions for fixing. On the flip side, I'm not at all interested in listening to problems w/no suggested solutions.
But, is it just me or does it seem that you guys are suspecting the worst?
First, having worked extensively on reviewing and revising the Corporate Regulations, revisions that were voted on and adopted by the membership last fall, I have to say I find nothing in them (old versions or current) that empower the Membership with ability to negotiate agreements with the Verband. That is a business function relegated to the Board of Directors.
Second, it is my understanding that several members of our Board, as well as Distinguished Members, worked long and hard (read "MANY hours invested over MANY months") and incurred significant personal expenses in negotiating, and traveling to negotiations, for the continuation of the ATA's exclusive licensing by the Verband for North America. Verband affiliation means something to me, as one member and a breeder, and I think the sentiments here are rather disrespectful.
I agree the response was disrespectful. Verband affiliation and the exclusive licensing by the Verband for N.A. means a great deal.
I am anxious to see the details - have heard hints of some adjustments to the performance requirements, which frankly I'd WELCOME. That said, this was only a rumor, so I'm waiting w/the rest of you to see the details of our new agreement.
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« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 10:57:13 AM by TwinGates »
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Beckie
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Sorry you feel that way. I am just curious about what the changes are and since I did not read about them in the newsletters nor was asked to vote on them (I can vote for my president via absentee but not at this membership)?
I don't attend the annual meeting often. Quite frankly since there is nothing to vote for. The recommended slate is only one person per position and so it just feels like a rubber stamp. But hey, we would not want things to change so that people feel more included. I have been a member for many years and LOVE the magazine. Saw the advertising... nice job but expensive.
But please, just trying to see what others think and sometimes I like to be provoking to see what the response is. No disrespect intended.
Looking forward to the meeting this year. It is one of the few times that I feel like I can go without the threat of coming home to "no house, no home, no horses" due to the fire danger in my area. See you there. 
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Beckie
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I have 3 issues that get to me and they are in no particular order:
1: Nomination comittee only recommends one candidate for each position. And the Board chooses the nominating commitee... this is fraught with problems and there is no way to avoid an appearance of impropiety. Two candidates should be presented for each position and the nominating commitee should be chosen another way. Elected, nominated in advance by membership, almost anything would look better than this.
2: Absentee voting should be approved. Come on guys, corporate America, the government, everyone can do this. And we are asking people with large responsibilities at home (taking care of horses) to leave for several days simply to rubber stamp the above Board...just not worth it.
3: At least some of the board meetings should be open to the public. This way, people could discuss issues of concern with the board in a public forum. Frankly, I just don't trust what appears to be a "club" right now because everything is so secret. Secret stallion re-inspections, secret stallion inspections, secret nominations, secret votes...... Kind of makes me think that the board wears dark robes and chants at these meetings!??? (just kidding, well maybe not, add some cigars and hard liquor and I would believe the above)
I hope that the Verband did have some changes as I think that the ATA could use a little help from the "mothership." But any significant changes should have been presented to the membership for discussion (at least). Look if we can have on online stallion auction, we can have a secure online discussion of critical changes to our most important legal document binding the ATA and it's future.
And we need to have what is called a little "street cred" or credibility in the marketplace. While I believe that Trakehner's have respect in the market, the association simply does not. Sorry, but that is the truth and that is not about advertising... it is about people. We need to come across as an open, warm, inviting, exciting association to be a part of. The above mentioned policies and actions just don't appear the be inclusive and frankly make the organization a tough sell to new members, especially today's busy professional.
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Sovereign Farm
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KALUA by Heling
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Beckie,
The majority of the nominating committee is chosen by members of the ATA at the annual meeting. They are nominated from the floor by members of our association. There are 3 nominating members chosen by our membership and then 2 are appointed by the board. I hardly see that as taking over the entire process.
Notices are printed in the newsletter asking for nominations from every single member of the ATA. WE ACTIVELY SEEK NOMINATIONS FROM OUR MEMBERSHIP! Of the few that are submitted a few are chosen based on their qualifications. In my opinion, the members that are nominated to the ATA board are generally those that have proven by their words and actions that they would be a positive asset to the association. Most of them have volunteered their time and energy to help further our association. It is easy for people to gripe and gripe about what could be/should be different and a lot harder for people to dig in and help out where they can. If people want to see changes, get involved!
Heather
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Laurie
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Aim High!
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"Secret stallion re-inspections, secret stallion inspections, secret nominations, secret votes...... "
Secret stallion re-inspections? Sounds like a great topic for the annual meeting to me. I have also heard rumors...anyone know the specifics?
As for the agreement, I think most are appreciative of the time, money, and effort that goes into renegotiating and signing the document but some feel left out since there is little information published about such activities. I DO agree that this organization is "behind" in the times a bit since most organizations utilize their e-mail distro lists to keep members/employees informed.
Though I love the Trakehner's International website and this forum, I should be recieving news from the ATA first....
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« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 10:30:17 AM by Laurie »
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acottongim
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Wow!
Just to comment on the "secret stalliion reinspection" issue... (and to point out how sometimes things get blown out of proportion and misconstrued). I am assuiming that this is in ref to the stallions from Jacksonville (and mares btw) being represented. To my understanding there is nothing "secret" about this.
I received a letter from the BOD as did everyone else that had a mare or stallion presented at the Jax inspection. The BOD voted and agreed that the horeses at that inspection could be reinspected free of charge at a future date (TBA) and time due to some issues/comments that were made during the inspection process. I'd have to get the letter to get the actual comment that is written on the letter. This is strictly voluntarry and not every horse is going to be reinspected. Scores could go up or down from the score they were given in Jax (and approvals could be given or taken away).
I think (and someone more in the know can correct me if I'm wrong) but the only reason that it was not announced publicaly is that they (the inspectors) are trying to still pin down a date/time that is convienant for those that are going to attend and it is going to be done in EARLY 2009 (like Jan/Feb time frame) so won't be part of a "regular tour"). I am quite sure that there is nothing secret about this as the letter I received said nothing about keepign this secret, or not to tell anyone etc.
Sometimes I think that people want to see boogy men lurking in the woods when really they are just trees.
As for the other issues - I don't know anything about any of them. But I do know that people are nominated for posititions from the floor and voted on them at the Conventions (a good reason to attend one if you ever can) so if you don't like the person "picked" by the nominating committee come and nominate someone else.
The way I look at it, is this is the breed I love and breed (and always will). The ATA is my only registration option for my breed (if I want Trakehners as opposed to Rheinlanders, Hannos etc) - if I don't like something about this orginzation then it is MY responsiblity to 1) suggest the change and 2) help MAKE that change. And change can come slowly. And yes, the BOD does listen to us "peons" with our ideas - heaven knows that the board and Brad and others heard enough from me this past year - and some ideas were liked and some not, and some are shelved pending further talks. 
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Beckie
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Ok guys, you win. This thread is not helpful. I wanted to see if there were anything new out there in the virtual world. Afraid not. Yes Anissa, I have seen the letter. It is unfortunate that this happened but it should be announced that due to technicalities, those horses presented in Jax can be voluntarily reinspected at a later point in time. Why wasn't it sent to all membership, after all it is an issue for the whole association when "re-inspections" are offered due to the conduct at a specific inspection. A short note on the ATA website would have been sufficient, perhaps posted as an auxillary newsletter for membership only.
Look, I just attended an alumni club meeting for my graduate school and the elections were done in almost the exact manner as the ATA (except that the vote was done by affirmation, not by ballot as it was not deemed necessary to do anything other than have a show of hands).
Guys, I just want the ATA to appear more professional than my alumni club. It should be a professional association of breeders, with the appearance of a strong advocacy for the breed and breeders (all breeders). Not a group of individuals who have to do "do overs!" Perception is reality in this case, whether the perseption is true or not.
But the enthusiasm of some of the younger members is great!!! As well as some old timers who are getting more involved again. See you in LA.
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acottongim
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Beckie - it isn't a matter of "winning" - in fact I AGREE with some of the things you are saying! I do think that we can absentee vote, I do think that things can be live streamed (both inspections and also the annual meeting - at least the meeting itself), and I do think that we ALL need to be more involved. Oh, and I agree that it should prob have been announced that this was going on (the reinspection). I'm HOPING that they were just waiting on a day/time to be confimred to let everyone know - I would assume (again hoping I'm not wrong) that because they didn't plan on inspecting other horses "they" didn't think that they would have to publicize a bunch prior to the inspection for new horses etc. Just a simple blurb that because of misunderstandings or whatever the following horses are going to be reinspected on such and such date. The bad timing was that this happened just prior to everyone leaving for NMS so perhaps they haven't had tiime to announce/post anything?
My whole point is if we are wrong in assuming it is a "secret" inspection, what else ae we wrong about? sometimes the perception is far different that what is reality (not saying anyone is right or wrong, just pointing this out). I've prob really not explained this very well.
I am VERY much looking forward to CA for many many reasons. Funny, I actually feel an "energy" in the orginzation and think that things are tryiing to change (hopefully for the better).
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acottongim
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Per the letter there were complaints received in regards to the inspection. The complaints involved two areas:
1) that the mares did not have comments made to the public and/or owners at the time of the inspection and
2) that there were "unprofessional comments" made toward some of the participants and/or handlers that some participants felt might be prejudicial toward thier horse's scores.
(I paraphrased all of that)
I will say that in regards to the first complaint - that is complelty true. The first mare that went in was my mare (the mare I leased for the year). The inspector had her do the hard surface, do the triangle, asked me to release her, asked me to catch her up and when I turned around to face the inspector again he was gone. Like to the point that as I was leaving the arena I was asked if she passed or not and/or what was her score and all I could say was "I would think she is approved, but I have no idea." The other inspector walked by me and told me that the mare had a 49 and was approved or I would still be guessing. The scores were read out after that, but comments were not made on each mare at the end of the inspection process which is kind of bad since no one knows then what needs to change or be looked at.... sigh. I view inspections the same way I view breed shows - they are learning experiences. I love to "check" how I would score a horse to how the judge/inspector scores the horse.
As for the 2nd complaint. I personally did not hear anything come out of anyone's lips that was unprofessional or "bad" - but I have heard of some of the things that were supposidly said to others at the inspection and if they were said ...  (I say supposidly not because I don't believe that they were or were not said, just that I heard them 2nd or 3rd hand.... ).
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Joy
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I don't think I've ever been to an inspection where comments were not made on the mares. Of course, they NEVER make them on stallions. Why is that okay? (Yeh, yeh, I know. But I still think scores and comments should be made public.)
What stallions will be reinspected? I assume that the approved mares and stallions won't request it.
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acottongim
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I know.. the mare thing was odd. Mare owners have the right to say that they don't want their scores announced, but as far as I know no one did that. I think some of the MO thought their mares shoudl have scored higher than they did (and hearing comments might have resulted in less complaints?).
As for stallion comments - I have actually said that for a while, but what do I know? Don't they announce them in Germany? Or is it just the approvals? On the live streaming I could have sworn I heard comments about the horse's movement, jump ability etc??
I know that Jean and I are not representing our stallions (why would we?) but not sure if the other three will be or not - it is up to the owners. The stallions are Holster, Zhivago, and Odin. Not sure if or which mares will be represented.
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TwinGates
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Performance Matters!
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The only really significant things that they say are
1) a new single antler brand for anglo and arab Traks.
2) officially making the 0/32 ancestors of outside blood (5 pure generation rule) on the record. 1/64 outside blood allowable. Currently, we have to petition the board, and it is accepted, but now it's official.
I agree w/Suzette: these are the only significant changes. I hope in the future people will wait until all facts are known before making assumptions (for the good or for the ill) about the board of directors. The terms of this new agreement show the ATA Board acted exactly as elected representatives should: responsibly, professionally, and with the good of the entire organization paramount.
There are a few, dedicated individuals who worked long & hard making this happen. Again & again, the board gets our questions/concerns and even criticism, but seldom our thanks, so here's an official: THANK YOU ATA BOARD FOR A JOB VERY, VERY WELL DONE. 
I shudder to think what would have happened to our organization had the Canadian contention succeeded in their (considerable) efforts to wrest this agreement away from the ATA.
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Judy
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The Canadian Trakehner Horse Society did not attempt to do anything to the ATA but get recognition for our association. We object to the contract having the wording of continental North America. There are Canadian breeders who chose to register their horses with a Canadian governing body and pay their fees in Canadian funds. The Canadian horse cease to exist with international breeders unless we join the ATA. Would you like this to happen to you?
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Lucky Mistake
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Interpretation question. Is "outside blood" in the above defined as "absolutely anything else," or is it just TB/Arab/something PSB approvable?
Or in other words, if, dropping into hypothetical real life , I ever get a foal from my main dressage horse, who is 1/2 Cleveland Bay, 1/4 Trakehner, and 1/4 I'm not sure (still diligently tracking those dadgum papers; I have her registration number but not her actual paperwork, as it was left a few owners back) , that foal, Trak sire assumed, would be 5/8 Trak, 1/4 CB, 1/8 not sure. That filly foal bred to a Trak would result in 13/16th Trak, then 29/32, then 61/64, then 125/128, and so on.
So if this scenario ever actually did play out through 5 generations, the resulting great-great-ever-so-great grandfoal would now be able to be registered pure Trakehner?
ETA: I'm certainly not advocating breeding on just anything with hooves and a tail, or keeping going with stock that isn't breeding quality just to get through 5 generations, but seriously, in spite of her unknown quarter, this is a cross that worked, and the mare is exceptional. Best suspension and gaits of anything I've ever ridden, not that that's worth much, but my trainer, who showed FEI and rode Mozart and Pregelstrand and has seen many, many top Traks, also says this is an excellent broodmare candidate. I see a lot of Trak in her, along with a heavier body and that distinctive coat color of a CB. I'll be busy riding her in 2009, but down the road, it might happen.
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"Then we began to ride. My soul smoothed itself out, a long-cramped scroll freshening and fluttering in the wind." Robert Browning
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Joy
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Okay, here's where I'll show my ignorance. Why can't the CTHS have a separate agreement with the Verband? Why is it necessary for the ATA to represent everything in North America, as long as the requirements are the same? From the little I've seen in the CTHS, they bring in some very good Arab and TB blood and are very careful in their breeding practices. Why is it so important that these horses are not recognized as purebred Trakehners.
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Alicia
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Joy I think the main issue is the potential lost revenue for the ATA. They believe that the current Canadian ATA breeders would choose to register with the CTHS if they gained Verband approval. Unfortunate for those of us who choose to support our Canadian registry. We've been around as long as the ATA and as far as I know weren't consulted when the origonal agreement was put into place years ago.
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