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Topic: Reality Check II (Read 3378 times)
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Suzette
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Ok, so I think the prior thread has taken several turns in other directions, and maybe we should start over to get back to what I think was the part of the original question...
In looking at the incredible movers that the warmblood market seems to be wanting these days, how do we compete against that? I mean, if our goal is to produce the Statesmans and the Quaterbacks, how do we get there with what have currently?
First, Is that really our goal? Or are we actually trying to produce a more "amateur freindly" riding type rather than the uber-mover for the top echelon?
If we are indeed trying for the top, then how do we get there?
You have to have the genes available to work with, then you select for more of that. Ok. I don't see anything whatsoever in this country that we have to work with.
How do find those horses within our gene pool that we can use to create those incredible movers? There isn't much like that available to Americans - even with the frozen that we can get from Europe today.
The other registries can make a HUGE improvement in a small amount of time, because they grab these genes from anywhere they want. Our only choices from the outside are TB's and Arabs. Sorry, neither of those will bring those genes to us. We can only work from within.
That means we have to breed-up one generation at a time over many, many generations to play catchup! By the time we get to where they are today, they will can be miles past that.
Maybe we should not try to compete against that? I don't know. Is this a battle that we have a single chance in h*ll of ever winning? From what I see today, I would have to say "no".
Should we be trying to improve on what we have today? H*ll, yes!!
But how are we ever going to truely able to compete against the other registries when we are playing with such a small gene pool? The deck is totally stacked against us.
Thoughts and ideas?
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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Elfe
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Keep in mind that Statesman sold for 400,000 Euros. I don't know how much Ann Kitchel paid for his dam Weissandra, but surely it was not a small amount. When you get to those prices, there are Trakehners, at least in Europe, of comparable quality. Think about the ones that get approved into other registries, the Caprimonds, Hohensteins, etc.
There is a much larger number of other warmbloods than Trakehners. It stands to reason that there is going to be, proportionally, a smaller number of outstanding ones in our breed. As stated by the above poster, our gene pool is limited by the fact that we cannot dip into other WB registries and, at least in the U.S., it's going to be hard to find TB's and Arabians of such high quality that they would improve the existing Trakehner base.
So it would seem that Trakehner breeders have two choices.
Continue to breed as usual, trying to improve little by little on existing stock, knowing that producing a foal of the quality of Statesman, will almost certainly not happen. These horses would fulfill the need of markets for amateurs and/or less pricey horses.
or
Concentrate on breeding a few outstanding, possibly very expensive mares, to the absolute best stallions available and be ready to cull mares and offspring from the breeding program if the results don't show continuous improvement.Obviously this would require substantial investments, which might be outside the resources of most breeders.
I guess the sobering conclusion is that, ultimately, it comes down to money.
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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Very good points Suzette, Elfe.
Statesman was not my example of what we should breed for. Imperio would be my choice in "what we should breed for" because while he is a first class mover, he is a bit more "real" and a much better jumper - a Trakehner, in essence an all around sport horse for the olympic disciplines.
You're right Suzette, it will always be more difficult for Trakehners. But look at where we got since say 1960. Movement, size, rideability, willingness to work, ability to collect and sit. The two things we sort of lost along the way which is terrible, are the jump of Carajan and the soundness of the horses when we had more TB in them. But I think I see how people are working on this.
The Trakehner should actually never turn into a Quarterback (I really don't like that horse, btw), or Sandro Hit etc. We have an identity. If we have any problem at all, it's that we seem to think our only true identity is black, a dressage horse, and the first name starts with H or C. Diversity is what will rescue the breed in the long run, and the Imperios etc will always pop up. The key to maker them pup up in higher frequency is the tricky part - and as I stated in the other topic, in my humble opinion, that key is to rigorously select for performance - over the life span of a stallion. Windfall almost failed his 100 day test. Yet he is one of the greatest all around athletes this breed has ever seen. As I said, no 70 day test is ever going to tell you the whole story. One needs to continue at it.
And of course, I may also be completely wrong And because we all make our own choices, I can apply my "standards", for whatever they're worth, in my family's breeding program and see where that gets us. If for sure will never produce an approved stallion - full circle back: I couldn't care less. That is my pet peeve, and made me post this video: the fixation of Trakehner breeders as a whole (and I'm no exception, I get carried away when I'm in NMS every year!!) with approvals and inspections.
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EclypseSporthorses
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Go The Distance
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This month I have looked at 5 Trakehner horses while shopping for a family. Three of the horses were for sale, all of them where by and out of approved parents & all of them had major flaws, so much so that I could not recommend them to the family shopping.
Maybe off topic, just FYI., since it is a reality check.
One mare had both fronts rotated in, the left front was the worst I've ever :oseen, and her temperament was hot, and she wasn't safe/sane to ride, and she had a yearling foal, same leg problem, though not as bad. She was o/o & by approved parents.
Second mare by Elite German imported stallion, and o/o honor roll mare, I was very excited about this mare, because of her reputed temperament (which was excellent) though frankly, shocked by her leg conformation...horrible winging in front, though very calm & sweet mare that children could ride, she also had some bad movement behind and looked much older than her age. Poor keeper.
Third mare by Elite stallion & o/o approved mare, rode pretty well, though bucked occassionally going into canter, willing mare, larger, though rotated out on left front & possibly a tad of a club hoof, though couldn't be sure, as they can be hidden with corrective trimming...very bad neck conformation.
Not a horrible keeper, but not an easy keeper. She just didn't have a correct foundation, and very close behind.-- though was good enough for a 14 year old to do well in low hunters on her. Her neck was ill placed, u necked and paper thin. This mare is also by a popular Elite stallion, pretty good temperament, and probably could produce much better than herself...though I was still surprised by the legs on this mare.
What I am wondering is...how well is the system of approvals working if there are still these types of foals on the ground?
These mare were aged 5, 8 and 11. And by well known / advertised stallions, and had significant flaws.
I did also see two others by approved stallions (though these ones were not for sale) & one was by a *PS* stallion, and looked nothing like her father, much much smaller, was reputed to be a bit hot, and looked like she had a significant dip in front of her withers.
Not the cream of the crop, from the cream of the crop...so all I can gather from this is that breeding the best to the best does not the best make. Honestly, there are fewer flaws in the working western horses at the barn I board 2 of my horses at. I am quite discouraged in this hunt, I thought we had a more correct breed.  This horse hunt is for one to be a good riding mount and broodmare prospect...and I cannot even say with confidence that these mares would hold up in a year or more. 
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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Joy
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I love Trakehners!
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Christina, you didn't mention whether the mares you looked at were approved. To me, that's far more important than whether their parents are.
Breeding is a crap shoot, and sometimes you get wonderful results, and sometimes, you don't.
Still, there are many mares that were previously approved that probably wouldn't be now. Standards are tightening up, thank goodness.
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EclypseSporthorses
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Go The Distance
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Christina, you didn't mention whether the mares you looked at were approved. To me, that's far more important than whether their parents are.
Breeding is a crap shoot, and sometimes you get wonderful results, and sometimes, you don't.
Still, there are many mares that were previously approved that probably wouldn't be now. Standards are tightening up, thank goodness.
Joy,
These mare are not old, and not by old stallions, so it is not like they are from some old standards. 
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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acottongim
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Also, just to clarify, I think that Joy is asking about the mares that you were looking at and if they were approved (with high scores or not) not the dams of those mares... right? 
Breeding is a crap shoot - you do need to breed the best to the best and then PRAY that you get the best! You can breed the highest bred stallion to the highest bred mare and still get a marginal foal. They are all individuals. And btw - I'm really not an advocate of just because a stallion/mare is Elite, Premium, etc does not mean that that particular stallion is right for that particular mare - you always have to look at the individuals. Some people breed to names not the horses, and I think if you don't look at the individuals and just the "papers" and designations you will have a higher likelyhood of breeding marginal foals.
I read somewhere (think it was PH or Equus or the like) an old jumper rider say that a slight toe in doesn't bother him very much because many of the top horses in his discipline have a slight (note SLIGHT) toe in but it doesn't affect their performance. Not saying that it should be approved - but there are many horses that have a slight flaw (what horse doesn') and is approved because EVERYTHING else is so good that the one flaw doesn't prevent them from being approved.
My favorite mare has a toe in, but she doesn't reproduce it. And she also did very well in the hunter ring and if I had had the guts to take her into the higher jumpers we would have excelled in that as well.
And you say "old requirements" ... which old requirements? The approvals were just changed (in terms of what each horse much reach number wise) in 2006... hardly enough time to see any significant difference - esp in riding age horses. Or are you talking about the older requirements? Keep in mind too that there are certain lines that are more disposed to having leg issues than others - a responsible breeder will hopefuly know this and breed accordingly. It is important to know what each of the bloodlines are prone to throwing - size, type, legs, disposition, etc.
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EclypseSporthorses
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Guess using the term 'old requirements' was completely wrong..I was referring to Joy's comment of:
"Still, there are many mares that were previously approved that probably wouldn't be now. Standards are tightening up, thank goodness."
Interesting point comes up in answering your question of the mare's approval status, and that is the conversations I had with the owners about where/why/how etc they came to own this mare, a Trakehner, and what their plans for said horse where, and what had changed. Neither mare where purchased by said owners because of the breed. It had nothing to do with why they bought them. 2 of the 3 owners never intended to breed, and never did, and therefore, they never even thought of inspecting. One mare owner hadn't even bothered to get the papers from the friend she bought the mare from, until I asked for them. These people bought these horses because they were broke well to ride, period.
And, here is that one horse's toe in, it got worse as the horse moved, and the mare had been bred, and it did pass on.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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acottongim
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Figured out who the mare is that has the rotated leg... Just for clarity's sake.... The sire line is not known for leg issues (in fact I have a mare by him and my mare has correct legs, and know MANY offspring of the grandsire and have never seen a crooked leg by him). BUT T'breds ARE known for toeing in. Am not as up on all of the lines of T'breds on who has worse legs and throws them, but that is one of the things that you have to be careful of with breeding to T'bred. I would hazard a guess that the mare line is where this particular issue is coming from (and btw - the mare is not being sold as a broodmare). I will say that the temperament from the sire line is expected. Although my mare takes a while to "warm up to you" but once she trusts you she is AWESOME and a lovebug, but that particular line does not suffer a fool at all and can be hot. Also, as an aside, I looked up the dam's approval scores (listed on the members only section of the ATA website) and the dam had a "6" on her legs with a "49" over all under the "old" standards in 2002 (she would have still be approved today), with higher marks elsewhere so it tells me that the inspectors recoginized that there were issues with the dam's legs but she was better over all to be approved. It is unfortunate that apparently this particular mare threw back to the t'bred in her for the bad legs... IF I were to breed her again I would make VERY sure that the sire was known for good legs (would be interesting to know who she was bred to as she might have had a double whammy of bad genes for legs... hence the improtance of knowing your bloodlines), and if I got another crooked legged foal she'd be culled from the broodmare herd.
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EclypseSporthorses
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Figured out who the mare is that has the rotated leg... Just for clarity's sake.... The sire line is not known for leg issues (in fact I have a mare by him and my mare has correct legs, and know MANY offspring of the grandsire and have never seen a crooked leg by him). BUT T'breds ARE known for toeing in. Am not as up on all of the lines of T'breds on who has worse legs and throws them, but that is one of the things that you have to be careful of with breeding to T'bred. I would hazard a guess that the mare line is where this particular issue is coming from (and btw - the mare is not being sold as a broodmare). I will say that the temperament from the sire line is expected. Although my mare takes a while to "warm up to you" but once she trusts you she is AWESOME and a lovebug, but that particular line does not suffer a fool at all and can be hot. Also, as an aside, I looked up the dam's approval scores (listed on the members only section of the ATA website) and the dam had a "6" on her legs with a "49" over all under the "old" standards in 2002 (she would have still be approved today), with higher marks elsewhere so it tells me that the inspectors recoginized that there were issues with the dam's legs but she was better over all to be approved. It is unfortunate that apparently this particular mare threw back to the t'bred in her for the bad legs... IF I were to breed her again I would make VERY sure that the sire was known for good legs (would be interesting to know who she was bred to as she might have had a double whammy of bad genes for legs... hence the improtance of knowing your bloodlines), and if I got another crooked legged foal she'd be culled from the broodmare herd.
This mare is not out of a TB mare.
And, I was there and my clients WHERE told that said mare would be an excellent prospect for the stud book, and wouldn't pass the trait, seller/breeder knew we where looking for a OSB prospect, as well as a riding horse.
If you read otherwise in any online add (?) any online add was done as a courtesy by me, to help owner find her a home & I specifically put non breeding in there...owner doesn't have a pc or do online etc.
This mare is not out of a TB mare.
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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acottongim
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No, you are right, she isn't out of a pure T'bred mare - but she has T'bred in her. Since the Tk that she is o/o isn't known for leg issues by and large and the T'bred does frequently have leg issues that is prob where the issues stem from. Not saying this isn't a nice mare, not saying that you or the owner have done anything wrong or duplicitous. Just pointing out that just because something is approved doesn't mean that a specific problem came from the sire necessarily. You made it sound like because both this particular mare's sire and dam were approved there shouldn't be any issues. I'm pointing out that just because the sire and dam were approved doesn't mean that leg issues weren't recognized at the time of the inspection. In this case it appears on the surface that the leg issues came from the 1/2 T'bred mare and I'm pointing out this as a classic example of why you should know what lines produce what traits and what to watch for when you are breeding. If we want to improve the breed we all need to be aware of such things.
Also, just so we are really clear on this issue - I didn't go and look for all this info. I happened to be on line looking at sale horses (as I do frequently) and recognized the markings and legs of this mare. As I was typing my initial response I thought to look up the dam's ATA marks.
Good for you that you recognize that she shoudln't be a breeding mare necessarily and that you didn't put it in her ad.
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Elfe
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1. Without direct information on front legs of both sire and dam of this mare and their respective parents, assigning blame for her conformation is pure speculation.
2. Improper foot care as a youngster should also be considered.
3. Nutritional issues both in utero and growing up is another factor.
4. Position of fetus in utero could be another influence.
5. Her dam was inspected and passed with an average score. Her legs weren't so poor as to reject her for breeding.
While it would obviously be wise not to breed the mare in the ad, it would be interesting to know if her dam had other foals and how they turned out.
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fuzzy
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Ouch! I would never have submitted anything with a leg like that for approval, nor would I have even considered breeding her. Perhaps the mare approvals need to be temporary and become permanent when there is either a performance or foal-quality test passed . . .
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acottongim
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I agree Kim.
Fuzzy - this mare is the result of two parents that were approved, she apparently has not been sent to an inspection. Although I do agree with you that I wouldn't send her for approvals.
Elfe - not assiging "blame" per se. But Christina wanted to assign blame, or appeared to, by starting the whole post about how she went to see 3 or 4 mares that were o/o approved mares and by approved stallions (and some were Elite, or had performance status etc). Just pointing out that it isn't necessarily the approved sire/dam's "fault" that the resulting offspring have issues - can be a throwback to "something in the woodpile" and in this case if it was "in the woodpile" I would be more apt to look for the fault in the t'bred lines than the TK lines... just saying.
I do completly agree with you that alot of rotation and hoof deformities are caused by poor farrier work (have one of those myself) early on in life. But not all are - and given that this mare's leg rotates at the knee down, I'm betting that it isn't the case. But I could be off on that as without xrays of the leg and an expert leg vet who knows?
I also said early on in my first post that the mare had a decent score. Her leg score was an ok score (I'm wracking my brain to remember exactly what each mark "means" I want to say a 5 is "acceptable" a 6 is "average" and so on but I don't remember for sure) and certainly didn't perclude her from being approved. Before I even looked up this particular mare's dam's scores I said I bet her over all scores were high enough that even if this mare's leg score was lower it wouldn't matter as much.
I too would be interested to know what the dam of this mare was also bred to (If she was) and how the legs turned out on those offspring - and also who this particular mare was bred to since it was stated that the foal's legs are also toed in (although not to the extent that the mare's is).
I've always been fascinated by bloodlines and what each one produces and is prepotent for - good and bad. It is part of the breeding process that intrigues me. Trying to correct the flaws and improve on the strengths and get more from each resulting generation. Not every horse is right for every other horse (mare/stallion) no matter how popular the lines are.
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acottongim
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Not an argument at all Elfe! I freely admit I don't know everything about everything - and discussions such as these are great ways to learn. I do have a horse who toes in (although not as badly as this particular mare) and it was caused by shoddy farrier work when he was young. I can show that his is caused by farrier work with xrays also. But his rotation doesn't start so far up his leg. Didn't think about the impact/stress to make it go further up... Did/does your horse rotate like that (forgive me if I'm assuming too much - it just sounded like you have a horse with a pretty good rotation by what you said) because it was left longer and that is why the rotation is worse? OR does it even matter??
What is the % that the old study says that leg rotations are only herdiable by what amount? (that being said, I wouldn't knowingly breed a horse who has rotation with bloodlines that are "knonw" for rotation to another horse with the same circumstances...).
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TwinGates
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Performance Matters!
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What I am stating is
how disappointing it is to find such poor quaility
horses out of & by what are supposed to be such
high quaility horses. It is interesting to see so many
comments about breeding being 'a crap shoot', is that
really what you all feel?
It is disappointing when a poor quality horse descends from strong, carefully-considered parents. Breeding is a science and an art, and even with stringent guidelines, sometimes poor results are realized. While I won't speak for others on this board, I don't believe any of them consider breeding a "crap shoot".
Ideally, you choose an approved sire (I completely disagree w/breeding non-approved horses . . . again, there's a reason we have criteria for approval) based on bloodlines, conformation, temperament and performance to cross with an approved mare (my guidelines on minimum qualifying scores as a broodmare are higher than the ATA's, but that's another thread) who you'd like to improve upon slightly.
The word slightly is significant. If you wouldn't be happy reproducing a better copy of your mare, then what's the point of breeding her? IMO at least 60% of resulting foal comes from the mare, it's even more important to apply stringent guidelines to them. The mare is the start - dont' make the mistake of assigning "blame" to these stallions if they were bred to inadequate mares.
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