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Topic: Reality Check (Read 3605 times)
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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Up for discussion. I ran into this video today. While I don't approve of this style of riding on an every day basis, I understand that this is for an auction and hence, sort of needs to happen.
For the view outside the Trakehner realm and a little realty check where other 3yr old (note the age, folks!) horses are, take a look at Statesman by Stedinger in the Oldenburg Auction last weekend (who, btw, was bred and owned by an American, but was born and raised in Germany).
Link: http://www.oldenburger-pferde.com/media/DE%20433330752005/video/Nr_1.wmv
It's a wmv file.
We see some of that caliber occasionally prop up in our breed, but way too few to really make a difference in the public's eye. Reality check is in order, especially in light of the threat on the new approved stallions (don't get me wrong, I understand the excitement, but people, it is a LONG way to an under saddle career!!). We (Trakehner folks) tend to get too hung up in titles and this is a classic example. I'm throwing this out there for discussion, and if it's controversial, good. My intention 
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acottongim
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Couple of things in response. First off, as one of the "new approved" stallions on that "other thread" - the hoopla is over if Holster should have been approved or not. Yes, of course I'm proud of my colt (actually my mom's colt). It IS an achievement and a testiment to him. You can't tell me that anyone that has had a stallion approved isn't proud of that fact. If the colt that you own part of in Germany is approved Maren you'll see what I mean. Does that mean that I think that Tate can rest on his laurals as being an "approved stallion?" Of course not. And I'm not talking about having him approved with just the Novic Event (when he is older of course - can't do it this year LOL). Will we do the Novice? Prob - just to get it done, but that doesn't mean that is ALL he is going to do. In fact, I've been getting emails and so forth asking if he will be presented to the other registeries for approval and/or go through the 70 day test etc. Also, I don't know about others, but I don't show my 3 year olds only in hand. I DO show my babies in hand. As I have stated before I do this because 1) it gives me an idea of my breeding program, 2) it allows me to strengthen my eye, and 3) (and most importantly) it gets my youngstock out and about which I think makes it easier when it comes time to show them undersadldle. Do I take pride in my youngsters when they do well in hand? Of course I do - my Oskar filly is NUMBER ONE IN THE NATION right now - and that is no small feat, but I don't think that is the end all be all for her. If I show my 3 year olds in hand it is also because I am at the show showing them in the Materialle class and/or a dressage test (usually a training level). Might as well do the in hand if I am there doing the other.
I do agree that so many SO do the performance phase and that is all they do. And in today's world that isn't usually enough. But it was not that long ago (when I lived in Germany so in the late 80's) that it was common to "breed the best and ride the rest" the theory was that the best brood mares and stallions were kept in the breeding shed to put out more high quality horses and the other ones that weren't the best were the ones that were showing. There are pros and cons to that of course. Which we could debate all day long but I don't have time to list them all.
As for what is right for a 3 year old to be doing or not doing... that is something that is a personal decision. Tate will show next year - at dressage shows, doing Materialle and/or Training Level tests. I don't choose to push him beyond that at this point, and of course that may change after he is started. I would rather have a sound/sane horse at 10 than a 3 year old doing 1st level at a show (not to say that they end up being unsound etc but you get my meaning).
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zendafarrell
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I know this isn't funny, but I have to admit, you've got me laughing at how ridiculous it is
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acottongim
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The other thing to think about is (and this is kind of my pet peeve) performance is not the end all be all. I do think that our horses (stallions, mares, geldings) should compete. BUT when I'm looking for a stallion (and I am VERY picky in my stallions) not only do I look at what the stallion has done, I look at thier offspring and the horse himself (confo etc). I can think of several Olympic level stallions (in this breed and in others) that while that stallion is WONDERFUL and is everything that I would love, they do not reproduce themselves, much less improve themselves even on VERY good mares. Peron is a prime example of this. I was talking to a well known dressage judge about this very thing.
Yes, you have to get them out, yes they need to prove they have the rideablity/trainablity etc, but they also need to prove themselves in the breeding shed. Conversley, there ARE stallions (Graditz anyone?) that didn't achieve upper levels of sport but did prove themselves to be excellent in the breeding shed and outproduced themselves....
I also think that we should MPT our mares, but that is just me. Why can't we do a main book whatever you want to call it for the mares that can pass the MPT, and the mares that can't make that cut (injury, finances of the owner, etc) can be in a PSB type book.
OH, and I do agree that our tests are kind of silly for the stallions. YOu know the ATA actually has a hard rep for not approving stallions (this is a good thing in my book - you go to some registeries and it is "oh well they approve anything" having a stallion approved ATA is actually a little more honorable IMO) but the final testing for them is a joke amongst the other breeds. Make sense what I'm getting at?
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Elfe
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The other thing to think about is (and this is kind of my pet peeve) performance is not the end all be all. �I do think that our horses (stallions, mares, geldings) should compete. �BUT when I'm looking for a stallion (and I am VERY picky in my stallions) not only do I look at what the stallion has done, I look at thier offspring and the horse himself (confo etc). �I can think of several Olympic level stallions (in this breed and in others) that while that stallion is WONDERFUL and is everything that I would love, they do not reproduce themselves, much less improve themselves even on VERY good mares. �Peron is a prime example of this. �I was talking to a well known dressage judge about this very thing.
Yes, you have to get them out, yes they need to prove they have the rideablity/trainablity etc, but they also need to prove themselves in the breeding shed. �Conversley, there ARE stallions (Graditz anyone?) that didn't achieve upper levels of sport but did prove themselves to be excellent in the breeding shed and outproduced themselves....
While this is a very valid point....in principle..... think about the practical implications. If you are going to breed to a stallion not only after he has proven himself with his performance but also with that of his offspring, he might be dead before it gets to that point. Also, if all mare owners wait until his offspring have performed, then there won't be any offspring to gauge his value as a sire. A study of the bloodline and what similar crosses have produced might help give a probability (as opposed to certainty ) as to what to expect from the offspring.
Regarding Peron: even though there don't seem to be performing offspring by him, before assessing his importance as a sire, I would like to know how many mares he actually bred, what their quality was/is and what kind of chances his offspring were afforded. Let's face it, the best horse in the world isn't going to make a name for his sire if he spends his/her life sitting in someone's back yard. Additionally, even assuming he did not produce well, did he have value as a dam sire ?
Good luck with your stallion !
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acottongim
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Thank you Elfe - and I hope that I am not being misunderstood (although I feel that it is prob easy to do right now as I'm at work, still tired from this weekend, and so forth so am not thinking very clearly I'm afraid).
I don't think that a stallion has to prove himself in the breeding shed, in the ring, and still have the confo, the temperament etc. I look at the whole package. And I also look at what my mare needs to add to the package. But I don't "discreminate" from using a particular stallion JUST because he "doesn't have a performance record". If the stallion is young, or was not really shown BUT has all the elements that I need/want for my mare (temperament, confo, height if needed, rideablity, etc) AND has a good track record of producing what I like then I'll use him. For example - if the stallion has all the components I like (including bloodlines) and I know that the bloodlines will prob procuce xyz, I would even use a brand new stallion on my mare. Even better, if it is that stallion and has a couple of young foal crops on the ground and I can see what type of foals he is producing, I don't care that none of them are under saddle etc. I trust my eye and knowledge enough to "take a risk" as it were.
And you are right, some of the stallions that didn't produce well himself may end up being a "broodmare sire". That is why I am not one of the die hard "must have performance" people I guess. 
Thanks for the wishes of luck.
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Maren
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Valid points, everybody. As a fyi, I co-own an approved stallion. I do know what it's like. But I don't pay as much attention to it. That's my choice. I believe in what I said. I'll freak out when that particular stallion crosses his first finish line in a CCI rated event.
Peron is a very poor example for all the reasons Elfe mentions. He has a few, very very few, offspring in Germany (he was busy competing, had very poor shipped semen quality and died in the middle of his performance career = few offspring). The few that we have are pretty outstanding (including an approved son).
And the times of the "non sport stallions" are over. They simply are. We can't afford it anymore. ESPECIALLY we can't afford it. I did not start this theme here to bash any new stallions - I started it because I felt the "FL Inspection" thread showing nicely where I think this breed has to re-evaluate itself over and over again.
What I really like? How in Europe in recent years so many stallions came into the breed DUE to their performance, including stallions turned down. Kaiserkult, a Bundeschampiona and Grand prix winner at age 8, was NOT approved as a 2yr old - but based on his performance record a few years later. Dito Karolinger I, dito so many others. I hope to see this as an example of what the future looks like: NO MORE approvals of untested colts. A few German WB registries are doing this now, and it's the right thing to do. We may miss out on the few stallions that get injured etc, but this is for the better of an entire breed, and some loss is always involved. Sorry if this sounds arrogant. I've been on all sides of the equation, lost horses that I had high hopes in, learned that I really know nothing, and have come to conclude that it's time to move away from conformation approvals and get to performance approvals. Which does NOT mean to approve anything that did well. A horse that looks like a gelding (aka no stallion expression) cannot be approved. A horse with serious conformational issues cannot be approved etc etc. Conformation is a basis of performance to some degree and needs to be kept in the decision-making process. But the lack of performance recognition that we currently see in our breed (WORLDWIDE!!, this is not an American problem), needs to be addressed if this breed is to survive.
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aquafarms
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My view on stallion performance is that it should be a personal choice. If individual stallion owners have a direction that they would like to go, then it should be their choice whether to compete their stallion or to take him directly to the breeding shed. I certainly do not want to tell anyone how to run their business or hobby, and appreciate when others don’t try to shove their views down my throat. That being said, I feel that many stallion owners would rather not take the risk of competing their stallion, and many have a hard time finding competent trainers who are willing to handle the breeding end of the business, as well as having to ship their stallions across the country.
As far as competing mares and geldings, I personally would not keep a mare or gelding in long term training unless they were progressing rapidly, and there would be a reasonable chance to make a profit on the individual horse. I think it is a good idea to compete a stallion as long as he is placing at or near the top in competition. I find it worse to have a stallion that is a mediocre performer, and is being pushed and pushed in competition. As far as performance requirements for approved stallions, over a third of the stallions approved lose their approval due to not being able to meet the requirements, so either we need to approve more stallions and make the requirements more difficult, or keep it as is. The problem I see with first doing performance, then getting the stallion approved, is that the stallion will be at an advanced age before producing any offspring. Before their breeding potential is realized, the may be infertile. Frozen semen can extend the stallion’s breeding career, but I have found that most mare owners are still hesitant to use frozen semen. I would prefer to see the evaluation of offspring as a prediction of the stallion’s genetic value.
Here is an article about Jan Greve’s breeding program. He does not seem to believe that a mare should have a dual role, but should only be a broodmare. Here is the link…
http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/G/Greve/TwJG.html
I would like to remind everyone that one major factor for a successful competition horse is the amount of capital invested in training. I think the reason for having fewer Trakehners out there competing is that fewer Trakehner foals are born world wide. I think percentage wise in comparison to other registries, Trakehners are doing an outstanding job. Joe
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EspritEC
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I love Trakehners! What are you riding?
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I share some words of wisdom from:
Basic Training of the Young Horse by Reiner Klimke
"At what age is a horse ready to be ridden?
There are trainers that start loose jumping yearlings and 2-year-olds. There are also trainers that lunge these youngsters. I am not in agreement with either of these methods. Anyone who knows anything about the growth of a young horse knows that it is damaging to the warmblood's health to have work of any sort in its first and second year, especially as yearlings and 2-year-olds grow in different phases. They grow at times more quickly in front and at other times behind which make it very difficult for them to be balanced. I realise that there is a tendency for breeders to start their young stock too early in order to produce them at auction as ridden 3-year-olds. Although racehorses run their first races as 2-year olds and as 3-year-olds run in the Derby, I believe that the experienced trainer of riding horses will not start work with his charge until the growth of the joints, bones and tendons is well advanced.
No warmblood horse should be ridden until it is three to three and a half years old. I personally do not ride a horse under three years. I am guided by the following consideration-horses that are born early in the year therefore develop earlier. These I start in April for four to six weeks by getting them used to their new surroundings, the riding school, snaffle, lunge and saddle. Perhaps I will ride them a little, before turning them out to enjoy the summer. I start regular work under the rider in the autumn.
Horses that are born in the second half of the year are lunged but not ridden before being turned out for the summer. I feel it would be a pity to ride them as they are not sufficiently developed. I only start riding them in the autumn at the end of their third year.
It is my experience that if I stick to these guidelines the horses' education progresses more quickly and with fewer problems. None of my successful horses have been shown as 3-year-olds. I bought "Winzerin, my three-day event horse at the 1960 Rome Olympics, as a 4-year-old in 1956. She had just been backed. "Arcadius" came to me as a 4-year-old just backed. I only started working him seriously at the end of his fourth year and when he was a 7-year-old in 1962 we won the European Championships in Rotterdam. I bought "Fabiola" as a 2 1/2 -year-old, started riding her a year later, and won the Dressage Derby, with her in Hamburg when she was a 6-year-old. I bought "Ahlerich" as a 4-year-old at the Westphalian Auction at Munster. I hardly rode him as a 4-year-old and only took him to one show. He won 10 medium and advanced classes as a 6-year-old and as a 7-year-old 9 Grand Prix classes.
I am convinced that had I started these horses earlier I would not have been so successful. One must have the patience to wait until the horse is physically and mentally ready for the work demanded of it. In my opinion one's goal is achieved sooner and provided no accident occurs the horse will stay sound longer."
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Carol Poulin-Taylor
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Maren
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Hmmm, I hope I did not offend you Joe by "shoving my opinion down your throat". Not my intention at all. I thought we discussed individual points of views here. And I value everybody's input.
Question:
I find it worse to have a stallion that is a mediocre performer, and is being pushed and pushed in competition.
So the mediocre performer should not go to perform because he is not good at it, but he should be breeding because .....why exactly? Or did I misunderstand?
As far as competing mares and geldings, I personally would not keep a mare or gelding in long term training unless they were progressing rapidly, and there would be a reasonable chance to make a profit on the individual horse.
Agree 100%
The problem I see with first doing performance, then getting the stallion approved, is that the stallion will be at an advanced age before producing any offspring.
No. Look at the "Wartehengstprogramm" in Baden-Württemberg. Stallions are approved as 2.5yr olds but can't breed until they passed a 30 day test. They are then allowed to breed a certain number of mares. The first 3 foal crops are evaluated while the stallion is expected to compete at age-related shows and pass his 70 day test OR qualify for the Bundeschampionat. By age 7-9, the stallion has been thouroughly tested for 1) quality of offspring, also under saddle offspring and 2) his own performance ability. The Dutch do the exact same thing.
If the stallion does not meet a certain criteria, the horse loses approval. And can gain it back later in life.
That takes age and a lot of other things into consideration. EspritEC, I agree with everything Dr. Klimke said. And I'm not suggesting we do GP with 5 yr olds. But a sanely run 30 day test tells you a LOT about a young horse, and is not stressing them to the point where you do any damage at all. I'm not saying a have a grand old solution to everything. I'm merely throwing ideas out. Our breed is under represented in competition - statistically speaking, and taking numbers of foals into account. And that is a problem.
And just a brief PS: books are very nice. Remembering Biotop going from basically nothing to GP in two + years with all side effects puts everything into perspective
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acottongim
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Not sure if you "offended" him or not Maren, but you are seeming to say that "if it isn't performing it shouldn't be breeding/approved". I think that everyone on this board knows that while, Oskar was proven in dressage by Hokken (and can't perform anymore thanks to his broken back), Impressionist did his Novice test and stopped. And there are reasons for that - many of them including problems with trainers and not wanting to collect for the MANY mare owners that wanted to use him. BUT that hasn't stopped MO from using Impressionist. And he is a good sire. Does he have offspring in the upper echelons in sport right this second? I don't think so (Joe can correct me if I'm wrong). But he DOES have numerous offspring with AO that are showing on the local and even rated circuts (in dressage and in hunters) and doing well. These are safe, sane mounts for the typical American rider who needs/wants something that is rideable and easy to train that also happens to be pretty and can take them into the show ring and win/place. Joe recently went to a local dressage/CT show here near me. He took 4 horses (all TKs), I was not there (so our TK breeders only were rep by one person). At that show there were SEVERAL other TK owners - either peopel that had bred to Joe's stallions, and one that had a Preston foal. The TKs CLEANED UP. The Preston foal had the highest score in hand for the DAY (and there were about 20 in hand horses there that day). A TK was in the top 3 (and usually all of the top 3) in every single class all day long. Their scores in dressage were in the mid and upper 70's. This was a well attended show with a lot of other breeds and a lot of horses, but Tks ruled the day. Yes, we need horses out there showing and making a name for themselves, but it starts at the LOCAL level. Tks have the rep of being "crzy and hot". Obviously that is changeing around here (and it is just now starting to change) If it is happening here it is happening other places also. These things don't happen over night. But I do see change occuring.
I try and breed horses that an AO can ride/compete, but that a Pro could take to the upper levels if they wanted to. That should be the goal (since we don't sell a Pro horse every day of the week, but usually do sell to the AO).
I do agree that we need to constantly improve our breed - but I also don't think we need to totally get away from ourselves. I had an interesting conversation recenlty with an OLD breeder of TKs and it was mentioned that they felt we are "loosing our roots" and going too far in the direction of "modern' and forgetting what being a Trakehner is. Not sure if I agree 100%, but I do agree with the principle of that. We do need movement (esp canter) and we do need some more jump in our horses, but we don't need to sacrifice the brain/legs etc that make a trakehner a trakehner.
As for Peron being a poor example or not... that is a personal decission, but I personally haven't seen one that I would want in my breeding program. That being said, I loved Peron himself, but don't feel he even came close to producing himself. But I do agree that he may be better proven as a broodmare sire down the line and he didn't have enough offspirng to judge that just yet. and that is NOT meant as offense to anyone that has a Peron baby as everyone breeds for different things and everyone has different ideals of what is right/wrong. I used him specifically as an example because he hasn't out produced himself (which to me is the mark of a good stallion) but he was at the "Olympic levels" so obviously ahs the performance requirements.
Back to my coffee and I'll stop rambling.
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Kumi
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And this is where we find a divergence of paths. The horse in the video that Maren posted is the quality and type of horse that is being bred for the top of the sport and what many breeders in other registries are aiming for. Breeding is becoming more and more specialized, and the horses are bred to be more and more athletic. I see this in the Hanoverians, Oldenburgs and Dutch. The stallions and mares are, obviously, passing on a natural ability and talent that is being culled and refined with each generation. I have been to inspections of all the registries mentioned above, and their standards are quite high. And, of course, their performance standards are more rigorous and are an important factor to the breeders. It's fine to breed the amateur all-arounder, and if that is what Trakehner breeders are doing, then there is definitely a market. However, we do need to raise the bar and carefully consider breeding choices if we want the Trakehners to be competitive with horses like those in the video.
These "modern" horses are carefully bred for natural ability, talent and conformation that consequently allows them to be started at the age of 3 and, with careful training, they easily learn and progress more quickly than in the past. (And maybe I'm speaking more from the dressage world than the other disciplines). With careful breeding and consideration for the discipline for which the horse is being bred, those specialized horses can stay sound in both mind and body throughout their lives - with correct training. They are bred to perform. An early start is not raising eyebrows like it used to.
No one has to guess what I think of performance in a horse. But I would like to know - what is it that breeders want? What is important to you? Do you look for a performance record in a stallion? Do you look at how many breedings a stallion gets each year? Do you go by what people suggest without seeing the horse? Are bloodlines a factor and do you research the pros and cons of both mare and stallion? I have seen people suggest the same stallion for mares needing completely opposite conformation corrections or are breeding for different qualities - do people just go with the popularity of a stallion or does the stallion truly correct all flaws?
But, back to the subject of the original post... The final decision is up to the breeders - do we want to breed the amateur all-arounder, or do we want to aim for the quality that we see in the video. I think there is room for both and enough breeders for both. We have the stallions and mares to fill the amateur market, but to produce the specialization that is represented in the video is another matter. I would love to see Trakehners more regularly exhibit that wow factor. We find Trakehners used quite a lot in crossing with other breeds, and we are well-represented that way. But I would really like to see more full Trakehners, Verband or ATA registered, at the top of the game. Standards have been raised quite high in recent years, and I, personally, would like our breed to follow that same path.
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acottongim
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Kumi you say this better than I do. BTW - you need to call me!!!!
In a very basic nutshell this is what I look for in ALL of my horses (mares and stallions) and in no particular order - they are all about equal in importance.
1) bloodlines. I tend to know what certain lines are known for and will try and match these things up with what I want/need (example - Anduc/Hailo will give me a prettier head and generally a good rideablity in the offspring - and this is a loose example)
2) temperament. I will not breed a horse that I don't feel that anyone can handle (at least on the ground). There are several stallions that are nice enough stallions, but they tend to be a tougher temperament and since I have a couple of mares with tougher temperaments I won't breed to those stallions - I have novices for parents that I don't want hurt, and I do breed horses that even kids can handle so this is a big thing for me.
3) bravery/boldness. I personally cannot stand a "stupid" horse and let's face it they are out there. I like a horse that is smart/sane and are unafraid. To me this does not equate hotness, but some will see it that way.
4) conformation. I try and match stallion to mare for conformation reallising that I don't always get it perfect. But I do try.
5) movement. If a horse can't do it naturally they aren't going to get it artificially. Usually the gaits get a little worse once the rider gets on the back - they should have good movement at liberty so that under saddle they are still good. ESP the walk/canter. Again - I may not always get it exactly right, but again I do try to improve on movement or maintain good/excellent movement.
6) performance. To me it isn't vital that the stallion or mare has "been there done that" but they should have had the ABILITY to do it. Or their offspring are doing it. I have bred to stallions with high performance successes and some with none at all (or very little).
7) the stallion owner. Funny that this hasn't been brought up at all yet. I won't deal with a "wacky" stallion owner or a SO that I don't trust - and I don't care WHO the stallion is. Life is too short to deal with nuts and I deal with enough on a day to day basis. LOL
Of those if I was FORCED to pick which is most important to me (and all are closely tied together) I would prob go with confo, bloolines, and temperament and movement. (funny how I can't pick one sigh). And like I said - it goes for all of my mmares as well as stallions.
As for the amateur vs pro - I think you CAN have both. I am not saying you need to sacrifice one thing to get another. I think you can improve movement and so forth and still retain the essence of the TK. I think that we do need to improve on some of our traits and our gaits/jump does need to be improved. But I also think that I have a couple of horses that could go to the upper levels in their sport with the right trainer/rider/driver/owner etc but they could go to an AO and not achieve that higher goal but do GREAT at the local level in a good solid home.
I think our goal should be breed to be the best (for a pro) but also breed so that the typical buyer (the AO) can handle that horse.
I do agree that the other breeds are ahead of this breed in that respect, but I als think that we are catching up. It is sad though that some of our "better" horses are leaving this breed and going to the other breeds to be "improvment" horses.
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Laurie
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Maren - great discussion topic! I have really enjoyed reading everyone's opinions. I have always said this would be a very boring world if everyone liked the same things....lol
"I hope to see this as an example of what the future looks like: NO MORE approvals of untested colts....We may miss out on the few stallions that get injured etc, but this is for the better of an entire breed..."
I found this very interesting because I agree completely. I have only recently joined the Trake family so I have to ask, is this even possible? I have heard a ton of gripes thus far (here and in person) about the stallion inspection process but not a lot of info on how to change it or if it's even possible? Would it involve a nomination at the annual meeting and a majority approval? Just curious at this point.
I also agree with everyone regarding the performance requirement at Novice. This past weekend I got 2nd place in open novice with my mare and realized we only needed to complete one more show to qualify for Nationals next year. I think my mare is fantastic but lets face it....I have a full time job, she only gets ridden once or twice a week, and we are still easily able to qualify...imagine what she could do with a trainer....lol!
Because of this, I'd rather see a stallion approve because he qualified for nationals/regionals (at a minimum level) in his particular sport, rather than because he put on a "great showing" on one day as a two year old. I also agree with you that the conformation, etc. is still absolutely essential to the approval process....
Anissa - great run down of the qualities you look for! I wouldn't be able to narrow down from those parameters either!
As for riding three year olds - I think it's fabulous how great that horse looked! However, I've read threads on the growth rate of different bloodlines so I'd say it has to depend on the horse...my five year old was ready at age three but due to the complete lack of any training (including leading of all things) by the previous owner, we didn't get started until spring of her four year old year. Ground training wise her half sister is light years ahead right now at three but doesn't look older than two. I keep telling friends I won't get on her until she "looks" like a mare vs. a filly to me. Keeping my fingers crossed that she will grow this winter...lol
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« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 02:54:10 PM by Laurie »
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Kumi
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I, unfortunately, have to disagree that the "professional" horse and "amateur" horse can be substituted for each other. Or, my definitions are just different from others... Maybe not such a good example, but a Ferrari (assuming it is a car of the highest quality - I don't really know, I'm not a car expert) is much different from an SUV - they are built for different purposes and perform differently. If we want to breed the quality of the horse in the video, we are not going to get that with the "amateur" type horse. This is not meant to be a slam or insult - we absolutely need amateur horses, more so than the "professional" horses. There is room for all. But the goals in breeding the two "types" are different, and the choices in breeding the two "types" are different - there is no question about it. Are there any breeders on this board who are interested in breeding the "professional" horses? Is that not a realistic or worthy goal? Is there a market? What are they doing in the Verband - are they specializing and refining their horses into those uber-athletes?
On a side note - I was a little surprised to hear that Impressionist doesn't have any offspring in the upper levels....as many horses as he's bred, there have got to be a good percentage in the competition arena at the higher levels. I don't know what to make of this fact...... So upper level performance of offspring is not a factor to breeders? I believe that Impressionist is one of the more heavily used stallions in our registry - I could be wrong, though. And, if there are numerous Adult Amateurs competing his offspring in the lower levels, then this just confirms my argument, in a round-about way. He is obviously a good sire of "amateur" horses and that is his market - which is a huge, important, and profitable market.
Regardless, I think our breeders are very good at producing what the market wants and needs. Most of our riders in the U.S. are Adult Amateurs - women in their 30s, 40s and 50s. BUT, the high performance horse - like the horse in the video - is the result of a different type of breeding program. To be competitive in that realm, and to produce that "type" of horse, you are looking at something completely different.
Will give a call - congrats, Anissa!
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Nancy S.
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Kumi,
I think you make excellent points. And yes, to answer your question there are breeders out there that strive to breed to the highest level. I have used older retired stallions, young unproven stallions, and currently competitive stallions in our breeding program but I research carefully and only use those that have either had performance offspring or a great genetic combination coupled with suitable early results that indicate performance potential. Our goal at Seneca Ridge is to produce and start dressage horses that are capable of being shown to the highest level. It is my most sincere hope that we produce horses with that "wow" factor that make them stand out, regardless of breed. And while trainability and mind are very important to me and well represented in our horses, I know we have started to reach our goal. I am a middle-aged, life-long amateur rider and I have produced horses that are doing very well with our FEI dressage trainer that have the movement, athleticism, and thrust that I know I will never be able to ride. Sure, they are kind enough that I can get on them and go around, it is another thing to be able to fully ride to their capabilities. I think if Trakehners are to be viewed on par with other breeds, it is absolutely necessary that we breed and show those capable of producing that big wow. I spend a lot of time looking at the "competition" and what I need to do regarding my breeding to be competitive. I also feel that there is a huge market for good amateur horses, it is just not what we have chosen to focus on. I have been impressed from afar with your success with your stallion.
Nancy Shaw
Seneca Ridge
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aquafarms
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Maren: As I stated before, I feel strongly that stallion performance is a personal preference. I feel just as strongly that people should be able to express their opinions, and if you felt that my comments were directed at you, they were not, and were not directed at anyone or any horse. As far as breeding to a mediocre competition horse, I am afraid my statement was misunderstood. I believe mare owners are very savvy and well educated for the most part, and would not breed to a sub-par stallion, but there are those exceptions where an exceptional performance stallion will not reproduce his desirable traits in the breeding shed. The opposite also occurs. Take for example Buddenbrock, approved in 1996 toward the bottom of his class. Although a nice performance horse, he certainly was not a top performer, but when it came breeding, he out-produced himself time and time again. If not for him there would be no Connery, which I feel is the most consistent producing Trakehner stallion for my personal taste. I ended my sentence by saying that I would love to see the offspring evaluated as part of final approval, so I think, overall, our views are more alike than different. The “Wartehengstprogramm" in Baden-Württemberg you spoke of is a program I would certainly support, if it is a program that the ATA will adopt. This is the first I have heard of it, but it sounds great.
Kumi: Impressionist’s oldest offspring are 9 years old, and I have geared my marketing program of his offspring mostly toward the Hunter market, and they would probably be just as well suited for eventing. He does have a few offspring competing in third level dressage/ training fourth. I myself don’t start my youngsters until the end of their third year, and even some in the beginning of their fourth year. I have recommended Kovington to some mare owners. I hope that you have great success with his offspring, and they reach the highest echelon in sport. Impressionist’s best assets have been his daughters, which are producing exceptional offspring, and I have culled heavily to make sure that I keep as many as I can in my herd. Apparently other breeders feel the same as I do, because in comparison to the numbers of his offspring, you find few for sale, and the ones that are for sale, usually sell for good prices. Joe
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Beckie
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OMG I just had a page long post to this and lost it when my computer refreshed..... I GIVE UP!!!!!! No comment!!!!  
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acottongim
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Isn't that frustrating Beckie??? I hate that when it happens.
I think that we are seeing things differently Kumi. I'm not saying I breed for the AO market - I breed to improve on what I have and breed for horses that a Pro could take to the top. But I breed the temperament also that should an AO buy my horse they are going to be ok. There are some people that think that if you breed the big gaits, the temperament etc for the pro rider you have a horse that a child or an amateur can not ride and I don't believe in that. An AO might get the full potential out of the horse, but they won't get killed on it either and the horse might not be able to express his full gaits with an AO because they are held back. That is what I mean when I say that I breed for the pro, but understand that an amateur is prob goign to be the one to buy the horse.
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Laurie
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Carol,
Here's my opinion from the eventing perspective: as an ametuer owner, I didn't have any problems competing in the YEH competition last year or making it to Novice/Training heights 2'11-3'3" with my mare who is five this year.
If you look at the Young Event Horse competition information:
"While the ultimate goal is to identify the future four-star horses it is also hoped that many fine event horses who will excel at the lower levels will also be showcased"
And think about this. These are the levels for the National Championships:
Four-year-old Championships – 30 percent of the jumps must be at the maximum height of 3'3" to mirror the specifications for the Training level.
Five-year-old Championships – 30 percent of the jumps must be at the maximum height of 3'7" to mirror the specifications for the Preliminary level.
I think Darren has done a phenominal job promoting Trakehners in this new division...do I think the average Ameteur could make it to Championship heights? Maybe not but I do think it's quite easy with a good horse to do the qualifying shows - Novice height for 4 yrs and Training for 5 yrs.
Based upon numerous comments about breeding goals to create competitive horses for both pro's and AO's, why not base an approval on something similar? (and like I said - only an eventing perspective here - other disciplines could have a similar requirement)
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« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 10:02:01 AM by Laurie »
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