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Topic: Stud Fees?!!! (Read 3540 times)
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Karim
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2005, 04:16:39 AM by Karim »
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sherry
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I love Trakehners!
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Okay Karim-I'll bite--you asked for mare owners--and since I have several, I guess I qualify. I don't think the original stud fee is a discriminator for most people--it certainly wasn't for me when I was going to outside stallions. The reason, I think, that German stallions stand for so much less is two fold--it just plain doesn't cost them as much to care for their breeding stock, and look at all the choices they have--I'm sure you saw the recents statistics on leading sires for 2001--and the REALLY big guys aren't even there. That's my perception for what it is worth--I would certainly be interested in others' views.
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Sovereign Farm
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KALUA by Heling
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As a mare owner I would love $500 for stud fee, however, I would never expect to pay that. With all of the money that goes into buying/raising/training the colts to get them to that point, I think it would be financially impossible to start with a fee that low. I am a person that is willing to try young stallions or unproven stallions but I do a lot of research first so that I am comfortable with my decision. I don't mind paying $1000-$1200 for a new stallion.
I'm not sure why but when I'm looking through magazines and I DO come across a stallion with a fee that low I always wonder what is wrong with the horse. Most of the time stallions with fees that low (in my experience!) are not approved. I don't think it would work well for a new stallion owner to price that low for the few extra breedings they might get.
Heather
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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If I like a stallion I will breed to him. A low fee is nice and I will wince at a high one, but ultimately the fee doesn't have all that much bearing on the cost of a foal or a young horse ready for sale.
As for breeding to a newly approved stallion, I am surprised to see a stallion with no get and no performance record to have the same fee as the proven stallions, and take that as a "con" in the cost-benefit analysis of breeding to him.
On the other hand, a stallion with a low fee (in the 5-800 range or so), whether newly approved or established, does make you wonder why the fee is so low. Is the stallion not very good, does he have limited prospects for a career that will enhance his value and the value of his foals, are the owners shooting for quantity of foals on the ground vs quality, etc.
In my mind, the drawbacks of breeding to a new stallion are 1) what you will get is even more of a shot-in-the-dark since there are no/few foals to evaluate; and 2) the marketplace is not primed to accept his foals (ie, stallion has no name recognition, though his ancestors might). To get around these things, before breeding I really have to like the stallion and have a good feeling about the stallion's (unproven) ability to produce well.
On the topic of the marketplace, a fee that is low and published or widely known does not help in sales of the foal either. A lot of shoppers still believe their insurance agents and think a foal's value is only 2-3 times the stud fee. [Those of us who have invested in making foals know that is only the case if the stud fee is 3000-4000!  ].
Kind of a crazy thing, but if a fee is usually $1200-2000, a lot of people seem to think it is a worthwhile stallion and the foal has some intrinsic value because of the fee.
Of course, any mareowner would love to get a "deal" on a stud fee of a stallion they want to use, a reduction of the usual published price, hence the great popularity of stallion service auctions.
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Karim
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2005, 04:17:02 AM by Karim »
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sherry
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Karim-I think you've summarized very well the pros & cons of this new stallion business--and thanks for your nice words--Charly did improve every mare he bred--at least that's my opinion.
The part I hate about starting over with Fandango is that I don't know how or if he'll stamp-so we've got another year before we'll even have a clue. At least we do know that he has the bloodlines to give us superb foals. We shall see.
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sixpoundfarm
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Personally I think new young stallions should have lower fees than the older proven guys. When I see an Intro fee at $1500, I think, yah right! There are an abundance of GOOD stallions in this country for around 12-1500, why take the risk on a young unproven horse for the same $$. I'd say if you want to offer a lower fee to approved mares, do so. Stay around $1000 for the first year, with an advertised incentive to premium/ top quality mares- by approval only. Mare owners might be happy to breed their good mares to a young guy if the rate was lower, and by doing that you can still have a reasonable breeding fee for all, but possibly encourage better quality offspring early on. Just a thought.
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sherry
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The only response I can think of is Duh! Makes perfect sense to me..........
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Jennifer
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I agree, too! What are people thinking when they want $1500 as an introductory fee? I even saw a $2000 intro fee for one stallion (not a Trak) recently. I think it was because he was imported (and, therefore, more glamerous and so it follows that his stud fee must be more expensive  ). I would think that the owners of young stallions who have no or limited track record for their offspring would want to get many mares of varying type bred to their boy to see what he produces. I think a reduced stud fee would attract more people.
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Tamsin
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I agree - the fee is lower normally to get more mares, to give the stallion a good chance to prove himself - then it either stays low or goes up!
The other option for a stallion owner though is to reduce the fee to mares of a certain quality - to me this makes perfect sense - the better the mare your boy gets, the better the offspring are likely to be and the better advert for him...
Often in Germany you can get a much lower fee for a premium mare, stallion/premium mare mother or good competition record. We all know there are expections and some amazing foals come out of ordinary mares, but it shortens the odds if you use the best on both sides...
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Equine Connection
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I can only say in our case that we've lowered are stud fee on a number of occasions for the better quality mares, and we offer a very competitive Premium Mare, Early Booking, etc., discounts, in addition to various breeding options to target the different needs of clients.
I think the willingness of a stallion owner to lower even published fees in order to obtain really high quality mares can only be a "win-win" situation. And as Tamsin said,
"The other option for a stallion owner though is to reduce the fee to mares of a certain quality - to me this makes perfect sense - the better the mare your boy gets, the better the offspring are likely to be and the better advert for him... "
I too think this makes perfect sense and I can only say it has worked very well for our situation.  The better offspring produced, the better it is for everyone - especially the breed itself. No matter how exceptional a stallion appears in the beginning, it simply takes the test of time for him to "earn his wings."
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Warm Regards,
Renee & Happy Hour
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SportArab
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Pavvo
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I've looked at this issue from both sides (as a mare owner and a stallion owner).
From the mare owner perspective, I shop around to get the best deal I can on a stallion that will produce a quality foal. I don't expect huge stud fees on unproven stallions and by unproven, I mean those with no or few get on the ground. No matter what kind of performer a stallion is, his proof is in his foals. I'm willing to take a chance on a young stallion if the stud fee is right and if I really like his sire and dam and think he's got the genetic potential to produce.
From the stallion owner perspective, I keep stud fees low until I've got foals to show off. I offer good deals to folks with mares that I think will cross well with my stallion.
SportArab
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DK
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Kammerland Trakehners
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I am more willing to try out a newer, unproven stallion if the stud fee is lower. On the other hand, I am also willing to pay a higher stud fee if I feel the stallion's performance and breeding record justify it. Basically, I have a nice mare that I'm not really trying to "improve" on. Therefore, I don't feel like I need to use a stallion with flawless conformation, a performance record a mile long, and flamboyant movement. A stallion with solid conformation, solid gaits, and a level temperament is most important to me. I also look at bloodlines and ask myself, "Do the known characteristics of this stallion's line mesh with what I'm trying to achieve in a foal?" For instance, I am breeding my mare to Tzigane this summer. He is young, doesn't have an extensive performance record, and doesn't have any babies on the ground (that I'm aware of.) Having said that, he has solid conformation, good size, a wonderful, willing temperament, and a great pedigree to boot. Because his stud fee is very reasonable, there is not the fear that if the foal is less than what I'd hoped for I'll be out a ton of money. Though I'm convinced that a very nice foal is in my future. When dealing with young, unproven stallions with $1,500 stud fees, I can't help but think, "Why should I breed my mare to your unproven stallion when I can go breed to a performance and breeding proven sire for the same price?" I also feel like there is a certain mentality of stallion owners that goes with these high stud fees. I have talked to owners that have 4 and 5 year old stallions with $1,500 stud fees, and I more often than not get the, "You should be grateful to breed to my stallion" mentality. Tzigane's owner has been nothing but great to deal with . She really looks at situations from the mare owners perspective as well as from the stallion owners, and I can't say enough great things about her. Getting the kind of service she provides would really encourage me to come back to breed again and again. I think that a season or two of a reasonable introductory stud fee would get mare owners to consider breeding to a stallion, and hopefully, if they get good service, coming back.
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DK
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Kammerland Trakehners
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I think a fair introductory fee is $750-$900. I think the fee should stay lower for a season or two, long enough to be able to judge his conception rates and see what his first foals look like. I think a staggered scale could also work, so the fee incrementally goes up as the stallion is more proven as a sire and as a performer. For example:
First Season Stud Fee: $850
Second Season SF: $950
Third Season SF: $1,200
Fourth Season SF: $1,500
A lower stud fee might really sway me to choose a more unproven stallion. Take Tzigane (Taz) for example. I had originally wanted to breed my mare to Impressionist, but it was her first foal, I was a little hesitant to use a stallion so far away, and I'm a college student at a university that costs $30,000 a year for tuition, so I'm a bit price conscious. So, I start looking around for a stallion closer to me. I come across Taz, who is only 4 years old and is 45 minutes from me. I look at his pedigree and some photos and decide to go meet him in person. Well, I fall in love immediately. I then find out to my great delight that his owner is offering an introductory fee on him because he's so new. That is what really made my mind up for me. If his fee was the same as Impressionist I might have not done it because it's a proven sire vs. an unproven one, but the lower intro. fee made me feel much more confident in choosing Taz. I'm glad I did. If I felt like I absolutely HAD to have a EH Caprimond bred baby for instance, but didn't want to import semen from Germany, then my only option in the U.S. would be Timotheus. If I'm in that position, then I have to pay whatever his owner is asking, no matter what it is. So, yes, I guess if you feel like you HAVE to breed to a specific stallion, then you are going to have to pay whatever his fee is, reasonable or not. I personally think there are enough great stallions we have access to, especially via frozen semen from Germany, that there is no one stallion that is "superior" to them all.
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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The opinion that bringing a colt in Germany all the way to approval is cheaper than in the US and therefore justifies the lower introductory fee is wrong. It is more expensive in this country, simply because space is a limiting factor and boarding horses (or supplying the land yourself) is very expensive. Additionally, if you don't prep your colt professionally for NMS, you better not even try to go!
Introductory fees for young stallions make perfect sense in a horse community where hunderts of excellent new stallions are competing against each other. The most expensive introductory fee so far has been installed for HIs Highness, the last Hannoverian champion (by Hohenstein), but that guy costed half a million (Euro) at the auction already!
LFG: something very similar is supplied in Germany, so this can't be the reason the fees are higher in the US. You get as much semen shippments as you need in one season to get your mare in foal-w/o additionaly costs. If your mare is not in foal, you can come back the next year for 50% of the price. If you start breeding after July 1st and your mare is not in foal until end of breeding season (July 31st), you can come back for free the next year. And that is true for most of all of them, for the 5,000 Euro Donnerhall as well as for the 600 Euro young stallion.
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Karim
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2005, 04:17:29 AM by Karim »
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EclypseSporthorses
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Go The Distance
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It doesnt seem right to ask the same fee of new stallions, as it does the stallions that already have had one foal crop. Lower fees may be a good incentive to owners who may otherwise have been leary to bred, because of the higher stud fees.
Will lower stud fees encourage more mare owners to bred their mares? Will lower fees also be lowering the value of foals?
With so many breeds out there to compete with and so many wonderful stallions, it seems that lower the fees may be a lot like lowering interest rates to stimulate the economy!? Maybe not such a bad idea, as the more Trakehners out there the better for the gene pool? And the better for the breed? (as more of them are seen?)
I'm not really sure how much more it would lower the overall value of a Trakehner, as I doubt the breed will catch up to the size of AQHA or IAHA, though, I guess, never say never.
There are Arab & QH stallions with fees of $300 to $3500, so it is hard to say what would happen with lower fees, as I think maybe it comes down to, a higher performance horse is always going to be worth more than an average competitor?
Interesting thread.....
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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AMcGrady
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I too worry f the stud fee is too low. I did a lot of research to pick my stallion, I did have a price limit but was willing to consider going a little higher if the stallion was worth the fee. I wanted to see off-spring, and lots of them. One reason I chose my stallion was because his owner did a great job showing off-spring, unfortunately, he passed away right before I bred. I went with his son because I thought he reflected his sires good qualities and bloodlines. Yes, he is young but I think it is going to be worth it. Stud fees do make a difference to mare owners, but to me, you get what you pay for in most cases. Each case is different though, it is up to the mare owner to do his/her research and find out what redeaming qualities the stallion has.
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Amy McGrady
*Cute as a Bugsear (Bugs), 1986 TB mare ~ Isella x Annie Somebody
*Pippen (Frodo), 2003 Anglo Trakehner gelding ~ Paramoure x Cute as a Bugsear
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sherry
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Wow-we've talked about this before--I thought that a young stallion--still unproven should naturally bring a far lower stud fee than an older, proven stallion--what that lower stud fee brought me in many cases was a mare owner that was difficult, not really experienced to understand how the whole process worked--etc. That certainly wasn't true of everyone--but without exception--when I raised the fee by 50%, I had clients far more able or willing to work with me so that we got my mare pregnant. My perception as a new stallion owner without exception was that every problem client I had was attracted to the size of the fee and not the quality of the horse. So here I am--about to start this whole process all over again with a new VERY young stallion--and I've set the fee at $1,000--high enough to discourage the lookylous--and low enough for serious mare owners to be willing to give my boy a chance. It also doesn't mean that I won't be offering my return clients or those with exceptional mares an exceptional deal. People who have dealt with me know that part of the deal they when they book with my stallion is that I've done as much as is possible for me to do to insure the value of their foals--my stallion will be with an international quality trainer for almost one whole year before he will be old enough to show--just my anecdotal perspective--I'm sure it's not true for everyone--but it's certainly my experience, for what it is worth.
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Donna Ray
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Karim,
I didn't have time to review everyone's posts yet (but will tonight).
This is an excellent question. From my perspective as both an owner of a young stallion and 10 mares,YES!YES!YES!
My young stallion has bloodlines and has the conformation and movement that I hope (no guarantees) will cross well on several of my mares. However, he is only 1/2 Trakehner, so that doesn't help my pure program. I will always use outside stallions, but what you suggesting would certainly help someone like me especially with the econimic situation like it is.
Low stud fees might certainly attract some low quality mares, but also good ones. Not all American breeders are wealthy. Some of us are just "regular Joes" stretching every nickel to build a dream. This would certainly help me.
Carson Farm
www.sportequine.com
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TwinGates
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Performance Matters!
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From the number of views, it's obvious this continues to be a "hot" topic. As the owner of the 4 yr. old ATA stallion, Tzigane, there are many reasons why I decided to offer a low, introductory stud fee:
1. There are so many outstanding stallions in the ATA that until performance and offspring records are established, there's little incentive for mare owners to try a young stallion if stud fees are comparable.
2. While Taz's bloodlines are proven (Graditz - Condus), until his first foals hit the ground, no way to know how - or if - desirable attributes will be passed along to his foals.
3. As the owner of two TK mares, I'm aware of the costs associated with getting a mare in foal. Even with breeding to my own stallion, vet fees add up.
Hope that helps. While I - like Sherry - have had the lookylous attracted to a lower stud fee, the majority of them are lookers, not bookers. The mare owners who have booked have all been wonderful. Those w/new breeding programs are wonderful in their enthusiasm; established breeders have been supportive and informative.
Had no idea how busy breeding season could be; have loved every minute of it so far. Good luck to all - stallion & mare owners alike - and best wishes for healthy, happy tiny hoofbeats!
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sherry
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Geesh-It really is a hot topic, isn't it? I wish you well on your young stallion. I've made my mind up ( and I'm a stubborn person) and the fee is the advertised fee. But that doesn't mean that I don't want Trakehner breeders with quality mares and my previous clients to come back---so there's a lot of private treaty going on. The bad news is--at least for me--it takes about $500 out of my pocket to send shipped semen. If Fandango can't pay his way--then I really need to know that soon.
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Sally Ann
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I can't believe I've missed this thread until now.
There's a breeder here in SoCal who has made a major impact on WB breeding by bringing in approved stallions and pricing them very reasonably, $550 and $650, or $1000 for a stallion with approved sons to start. She provides excellent customer service. And the stallions young enough to compete are out in the show ring with big name trainers.
I'm also involved in a coop of breeders who brought in three stallions from Holland. Initial "membership" was $1000 for one breeding and additional breedings for $500/mare. The original idea was that the original members would pay zero for subsequent years, but that was unrealistic. We've been asked to pay $350 for our one mare/year, and $500 for additional breedings IF they mare checks in foal.
In addition, frozen semen is becoming commonly used. This is the competition for good mares.
I think the larger market is mare owners who are breeding sport horses, not necessarily horses of a certain registry. That's been the reason for success of the ISR in this huge country. Unfortunately, it was tarnished by controversy because of politics, but I think it has pretty much died on the vine now.
Trakehners are widely used as improvement sires in Europe. Are the Trakehners stallions in the US attracting mares from other registeries? (I bred one of my Dutch mares to Kaspareit and the resulting colt will be presented for stallion approval at the age of 4.)
I think a stallion owner has to have enough money in the bank to support the stallion while he gets enough babies on the ground and gets a competition record. Once he shows what he produces and that he has a show career, the stud fee can go up. I think Windfall can be priced at whatever the market will bear in this country, but he is a rarity.
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Sally Ann
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I want to clarify what I said in my previous message. A stallion owner doesn't have to do anything, of course.
I paid $1,000 to breed to Idocus his first year at stud. He received 99A points in the Dutch approval and was Grand Champion of Dressage at Devon. Since years pass before the Dutch jury will approve a stallion here, I knew he passed an exceptionally high standard. I think he got 20 mares that first year, and I had one of the foals out of a TB mare who scored no. 5 in the Dutch Best of the Best list. Idocus is now competing successfully at Grand Prix in Holland.
I have Dutch and Trakehner mares, and a retired Hanoverian mare. My thoughts on the need for reasonably priced stud fees come from an awareness of the competition for mares across several registeries.
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