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Topic: How do I ID a rescue? (Read 3881 times)
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beckybee
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Posts: 10
I love Trakehners!
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Hello everyone!
I rescued a slaughter-bound gelding last winter. He was listed by the rescue as a TB/QH or some other TBX. Well, after he shedded out a Trakehner brand appeared!
I have no history on him, I have no idea of his age other than what I can estimate from his teeth, and he's grey. He appears to have dressage training and probably jumping as well.
I think he's in his early teens. He's a sweet, beautiful, calm boy.
I would love to find out who he is, how old he is, etc. Any advice? I'll post pics tomorrow.
Thanks!
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Joy
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I love Trakehners!
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LUcky you rescuing a Trakehner! Yup, he probably does have dressage training. It's pretty hard to tell without some indication of where he came from. Can you find out where the rescue organization got him?
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beckybee
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I love Trakehners!
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He was rescued off of a feedlot near Yakima, Washington. The guy that owns the feedlot either purchases the horses directly from owners, or he and other kill buyers pick them up at auction.
If a horse is rideable and sound, the kill buyers will take them from one auction to another and try to get more money than what they paid. Many horses will be taken through 3 or 4 auctions from California, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Idaho and/or Montana before they are finally sent across the border to Canada for slaughter. It is rare that a kill buyer will divulge where they got a particular horse.
I doubt my horse came from the area near the feedlot because the vet that did his vaccs, travel docs, etc. is a big Trak breeder/trainer in that area and didn't recognize him (or even notice his brand!).
Someone at the ATA mentioned being able to do a DNA match on him if we could narrow it down to a handfull of sires.
[attachment older than one year]
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Joy
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I love Trakehners!
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Any way of finding out who the guy at the feedlot got him from? They have to have records, especially in the western states, because of brand inspections, travel permits, etc.
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Elfe
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I love Trakehners!
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Can you identify the brand, i.e. is it the ATA brand, the German brand or the Canadian Trakehner brand ?
I don't know if the registries keep a log of what horses get branded what year, but if they do, that could be a place to start.
If it's the German brand, then he would have had to be imported and if he was subsequently registered in one of the North American registries there might be a record.
Good luck and let us know what you find out !
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TwinGates
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Performance Matters!
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What a sweet face! Elfe's suggestion is a good one re: which TK brand (CAN, US or GER). How old do you estimate him to be based on his teeth? Although this is a best guess, when combined with the brand and his color, that's three identifiers by which the ATA (or whichever registry's brand he carries) can search for him.
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beckybee
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I love Trakehners!
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I'm pretty sure it's an ATA brand.
One vet estimated he was about 10 years old, another estimated at almost 20. Big help  . I think he's early teens. A gal at the ATA said they registered 300 grey colts in that time period.
The ATA wants me to get him wet and look for white markings to help narrow it down. I feel bad making them do this (probably) futile research. Do only ATA officials have access to the registry? I would have no problem doing the horse-by-horse elimination starting at age 10 and working backward.
I've asked the rescue to see if the feedlot owner will give them any info. Unfortunately I didn't see his brand until I'd had him for over 6 months, so never thought to ask for history. At this point they probably won't have any records, but I'm trying! I tried to get info on another rescue horse and the feedlot owner and the auction kill buyer were unhelpfull. They have no reason to be cooperative and every reason to obfuscate, especially since they often break laws like transporting undocumented horses across state lines.
I am just having a hard time imagining how an early teens, reasonably sound, level-headed, well-trained Trakehner ended up an "18 year old TB/QH" on a feedlot headed for slaughter and sold for $0.40/lb.
[attachment older than one year]
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acottongim
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I love Trakehners!
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Looks like an ATA brand to me.
Have no other ideas on how to guesstimate his breeding, but wanted to tell you that he does look VERY nice. Not just his temperament/training, but he is well put together - I bet if you do find out what his pedigree is you find out that he was once "someone" and has the pedigree to back it up.
How he ended up in slaughter.... the good owner had to sell for whatever reason, the next person sold to a slightly less home, and so it goes. All it would have taken was for him to be unsound at one point and the quality of homes goes down (this is a HUGE generalization, but how it could happen).
How he became a Tb/QH? I get my mares accused of that all the time. The local yokels attribute the big butt to QH and the bigger stride to TB. Even the "non yokels" don't imagine that such a QUIET horse could possibly be one of them crazy TKs.... LOL The yokels don't know what the brand is and the others either don't see it or whatever.
Kudos to you for saving him, and congratulations! I think he is adorable.
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Deb
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I just want to thank you for bringing him home and congratulate you on him! I'm glad someone got him that recognized the brand! Good luck and I hope you find out something about him. I'd love to hear! 
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fuzzy
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I would think a blood or hair sample could possibly be used to pin down his sire. He wouldn't even have to be cross-referenced with every stallion - the gray ones and the ones who sired gray colts out of gray mares with the credentials to have antlers put on their babies' butts. You said he's one of about 300 colts, but the list of their sires might not be very many horses to check against. Also, does the ATA have a record of how many of the 300 gray colts in your guy's general age range got branded? That may also help narrow your search.
Good luck with your search, and congrats on finding and saving a gem!
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Laurie
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Aim High!
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The DNA sampling is a great suggestion but I just spoke with Kelly yesterday about another "mystery" mare I've been contacted about and it costs $60 for each stallion you type them against. That can get expensive fast.
Narrowing down the search by who was branded is a great suggestion and then making calls to the owner on record for those horses is maybe the best way to go. List the colts you can't verify and then compile the list of possible sire's. You may still come up empty but it would be a lot cheaper to narrow down the list first...
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beckybee
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I love Trakehners!
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I agree - it shouldn't me that hard to narrow down with the list in hand.
Can anyone access the registry other than the folks at the ATA?
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Shawnda
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I can. I have it in Excel file, but its listed aphabetically, so I need a name. It has literally over 14,000 horses on it, so there is no way I have time to check the list without at least a few names to start with.
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beckybee
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Wow! You have the list?
Can you sort by year of birth, etc? I assume the list has columns for gender, color, etc., right?
How big is the file - is it small enough to email?
I would love to rummage through the file and see what I could come up with!
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cherryvalgal
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I love Trakehners!
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Probably a long shot but he reminds me of some of the Schubert's that I have seen. I know that Schubert was still breeding in 1996 as he was at the same ranch where I briefly boarded one of my mares.
http://www.americantrakehner.com/Stallions/Inactive/Schubert.asp
Kudos to you for rescuing him. He has such a kind eye. He's a lucky boy.
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Shawnda
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I'm sorry I cannot send this file to anyone. As I said it is listed aphabetically, then reg. #, birthdate, color, sire, etc. It includes all horses reg. with the ATA since we started registering horses (OBS, ORB, OAB, etc.) so it is huge, and as I said there are over 14,000 horses on it.
So it also gives you an idea as to why the ATA office cannot take the time to go through it either. We need more info. than he's grey, and in his teens. Its like looking for a needle in a hay stack.
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acottongim
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I love Trakehners!
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Another thing to think about - due to his age (which would make sire/dam even older) we may be talking about blood typing, not dna. When I had to prove a mare's parentage (her dam was dna nad her sire was blood typed) I had to get both done in order to prove the parentage as UC Davis told me that they could not compare DNA data base to blood typed data base. Just a head's up.
Also, I spent all day with Joe P yesterday (getting vet checks etc on our prospects) and we actually talked about your gelding. He said it reminded him of the stallion Ersand (who was very heavily bred up in that part of the world). He said he would start with that angle and go from there.
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Suzette
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And it isn't sortable information? I mean, is it an Excel spreadsheet or Access?
It would be a good tool to really pin down the "possibles".
He is obviously ORB-A-S listed,(fullblood), grey, within say, a 3 yr period. His feet are black, so it is unlikely that he has any white leg markings. She will need to see if he has any markings on his head. You could further pin it down cuz, maybe Half? or so were branded back then. These days, probably even fewer are branded.
If this isn't sortable, can it be imported into an xls format so that it can be useful to the membership?
Just a thought, but to me he has the "Schickendanz look". I would think to see if they recognize him as something that they bred there.
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 09:27:42 AM by Suzette »
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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Altamont Sport Horses
ata
Preliminary
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I love Trakehners!
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Are his legs completely grey now or is there still some dark color? And his tail?
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fuzzy
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I forgot markings to narrow the search - no point in tracking down horses with pink noses or white feet if your guy hasn't got'em! Not everybody records markings of grays, but they should.
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Elfe
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I love Trakehners!
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It might be worth to have him tested to see if his color is homozygos or heterozygos gray. That way you would know if he had one or two gray parents and narrow the search further.
I think U.C. Davis does this.
I don't know how far you want to take this, but his dam line should be able to be identified via mitochondrial DNA. You then would know the mare family he comes from.
It would be really neat to find out who he is !!!!!
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beckybee
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I love Trakehners!
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Busy weekend - sorry I haven't replied!
His feet are all black, so I assumed he wouldn't have any leg markings. I didn't see any pink skin when his legs were wet, but the lighting was bad. I'll check more closely for smaller markings (coronet). I need to wet his legs and head again. Believe it or not, it's actually been fairly chilly here on the north coast of California!
He has a few black hairs in his mane, tail, forelock and legs, so that would mean he was black/bay not chestnut. Great idea to test for heterozygous grey with UCD!
To test the mitochondrial DNA for a maternal match, I would need to narrow it down to a few mares to test against.
What is the size of the ATA brand? I'll measure his brand to see if it has grown (branded as foal).
The person at the ATA thought that many of the blood typing samples had been converted to dna - I guess they would only do that if that lineage was active.
Thanks for all your ideas and support!
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Beckie
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I LOVE Trakehners!
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Just a thought, but based upon age and location, this looks like a horse that might have been bred by Ursula Liakos in Petaluma. It kind of looks like the gray might come from Condus (Ramzes) blood. And it would make sence that a horse breed in nothern CA would drift up to Washington. Try that angle and look for geldings by Tempelritter or Aristokrat that were grey and registered in his approximate age range. The brand means that the ATA knows who he is if you can get a "hook" to lead them to the right bloodline.
Good luck.
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Elfe
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I you have not submitted to UC Davis yet, you might want to check this outfit:
http://animalgenetics.us/Gray.htm
I don't know anything about them but thought it might be worth looking into.
At least, if you find out he is homozygous, you can concentrate on ATA gray stallions, which would narrow down the search considerably.
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