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Topic: Intro (Read 4268 times)
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Intro
« on: December 23, 2001, 10:08:56 AM » |
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**********NOTE: This topic got garbled in the translation, so the thread has been recreated here. Sorry for the lack of "Authenticity"!******************
Let's share ideas about what works and what doesn't.
As a breed in general, those of us actively engaged in marketing horses (and even those who simply have ambassadors of the breed) need to work ever harder at presenting a strong Trakehner front.
It continues to amaze me how many people are anti-Trakehner, almost as much as the reasons for those attitudes amaze me! The last one I heard, when a the owner and trainer at an H/J barn was asked why she did not have or like Trakehners much, was that they are too inbred!
So my "vision" for this board is marketing on an individual and "breed"-al basis. Of course, the discussion may not turn out that way... LOL
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Re: Intro
by: Amanya, amanya@eudoramail.com
date: 10/27/01 at 20:01:07
Even though my mare is in foal, I'm certainly not a breeder. I do like the idea of being an "ambassador" of the breed
When I was considering breeding my mare, I discovered that most people, including stallion owners of other breeds, did not realize that Trakehners have a "closed" book. When I explained that I only wanted to breed to a Trakehner stallion, they didn't understand at all. Replies often included, "you can always register the foal as an Oldenburg; it really doesn't matter."
Other responses included, "I thought you wanted a dressage horse? Trakehners can jump but they don't often make good dressage horses." (OMG, duh and duh...like Condus is the grandsire of my mare for one....duh)
BTW, my vet has fallen in love with my mare, calls her "Sunshine"; and has suddenly become VERY interested in her as a Trakehner...before, when we first arrived for the breeding, she referred to my mare as a "warmblood mare", so I gently reminded her that this warmblood was specifically a Trakehner, so now she's got it right. She was fascinated when I gave her the quick 25-word summary of the Trek. So, a history lesson here and there, also helps.
As for some activities to market the Trakehner breed in general, I'm open for ideas.
Question: when you talk about marketing, are you also including the promotion of stallions as well? I've observed how much work stallions owners go through to promote their guys. It's not easy. Perhaps this discussion can address some of their issues as well.
As for marketing an individual horse...uh uh. Everything I have is for sale....unless it breathes. I could never sell a horse (-- which is why I'm not a breeder!!)
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Re: Intro
By: starrynightfarms, starrynightfarms@hotmail.com
date: 10/31/01 at 05:29:23
I will certainly be watching this subject quite closely as I am new to the breed to sell world. I'm going to go back to a comment made on showing. I think the best marketing tool for trakehners is showing! Although it would be wonderful to see more representatives of the breed at the higher levels my guess is the majority of the market is the amature rider. I for one will be out there next year, starting at the very lowest level and working my way up. What better way to market my horses then to get them out there and performing.
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Re: Intro
By: Renaissance_Equine, jknees56@cs.com
Date: 10/31/01 at 05:54:12
If I get started I will go on forever. I understand the frustration of promoting trakies. My friend is looking for an experienced eventer that can do dressage 2nd level and up. I forwarded a number of high quality Traks and anglo traks her way - Horses that can go international - her response - my husband doesn't want trakehner - no other reason. I asked her and found he had a bad experience. So one bad experience and the whole breed is doomed. And these are seasoned british horse people. What I see is the need for positive marketing. Any time anyone has a success with a trakehner at any level get the news to the big publications. Send a letter to the editor to respond to articles that mention Trakehner. (USDF, Dressage Today, COTH, Midwest Sporthorse Journal) Change doesn't happen overnight, but the more we as trak people are consistent in getting the word out, attitudes will change. Local media coverage of something fun at your farms is also good!
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Re: Intro
By: Suzette, karouselfarms@netscape.net
Date: 10/31/01 at 07:55:14
I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. First, 95% of all riders are lower level (never make it past 2nd level), mature women. While we recognize that as the market that will be buying these horses, we also have to recognize that those same buyers don't admit it to themselves! They all claim that they are shopping for an "Olympic potential" horse (which they couldn't ride if they could ever afford to buy it in the first place). 
Anyway, we have to aim our marketing towards that "perceived" need. So, we have to promote the breed, and our bloodlines as being the highest quality, most competitive, super-horses. Is that what they are? No. Is that what they need? No. But it is all about "marketing". Would anybody buy a new car that was advertised as being "great transportation to get you to work everyday"? No. They advertise it as being a big boost to your social standing, ego and sex-appeal.
It's the same for the breed. We have to appeal to the buyer's ego, and make them feel the special ego-boosting power that owning a Trak will give them. So, how do we do that?Advertising. Promoting the big winners. Spending a lot of money to boost the reputation of the breed.
We need to promote them as "rare", "hard to get", "only for really special people", like fine jewels. We can't compete with the "numbers" as the breed is too small to show up the Dutch or Hanno's who outnumber the Trak breed in this country 10 to 1. So they will always come out better in the year end standings. We need to have something else to hang our hat on.
It all comes down to marketing.
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Re: Intro
By: Tannenwald Trakehner, atrakehner@aol.com
Date: |10/31/01 at 10:31:30
I agree, marketing is everything. And it is tough, because of the strange bad rap Trakehners get. It is an albatross that the Trak did not only acquire for itself, but that it inherits along with all of the positive qualities that the TB and Arabs provide. For heaven's sake, everyone KNOWS TB's and Arabs are NUTSO, right?
I don't know about setting them apart by saying best, highest quality, ta da ta da. Those are fairly subjective and general comments. There ARE characteristics about the Trakehner, as it is bred today and always has been, that set it apart. Our horses, on the whole, are the most elegant moving of the warmblood breeds, and are generally the most forward as well (although I have a couple "drivey" types, most have "automatic transmissions"). They are the typiest and are the consummate dressage horse, having been bred for centuries to be the ultimate riding animal.
And yes, making a big deal of the top performers is great, but there just aren't very many of them, at least in this country. Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking the quality of the horses, but how many articles have we all seen on Amiego, Abdullah, Troubador, Kronuwel, Leonidas, Larissa, and now Windfall? Now, how many articles in the US press about other performing Trakehners? Not many. So the question becomes, how do we get people who are going somewhere (or ARE somewhere) to be doing it on a Trakehner? There are simply not enough high level performing Trakehners with high profile riders.
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Re: Intro
By: Sovereign, SovereignHorses@aol.com
Date: 10/31/01 at 18:19:06
As far as letting the general horse public know how successful our Traks are, I encourage EVERYONE to submit all Trak results to the ATA for the website and publication in the magazine. I work on the Performance issue and would love to see more adult amateurs sending me their results! I had one lady comment to me that the ATA "ignores all of their AA's..." and I would disagree. Generally, if info is sent in for the magazine (on time!) it does get published.
On another note, I am contacting my local Dressage Association to make sure that they apply/request for the High-Point Trakehner award at all of the Dressage shows! That is a great thing to see when you're at a show! The ribbons I've seen have been very nice and caused quite a stir... "That is a Trakehner? I had no idea. What a great guy..." I'm not sure exactly how the awards committee gets these ribbons out there (maybe someone can help me out?) but I'm sure if we all took an interest in it, we could expand it within our area/state, at least!
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Re:Intro
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2001, 10:10:00 AM » |
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just testing this thread 
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Deborah
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I love Trakehners!
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Re:Intro
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2002, 08:06:14 PM » |
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If you get the USDF Connection magazine in the 1/02 issue there is an interesting article. It is on the last page written by a lady about her first experience in showing. She also shares the same sport with her daughter. The mother won four classes and was high point rider of the show. Her daughter qualified for the CA Junior Championships. Guess what breed their horse is?! A five year old Trakehner named Harlekin.  Nice public relations for the breed.
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Sovereign Farm
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KALUA by Heling
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Re:Intro
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2002, 11:40:45 PM » |
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Thanks for the heads-up! I'll look for the blurb and maybe contact the people for the next American Trakehner magazine!
Heather
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Linda R
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Re:Intro
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2002, 09:34:17 PM » |
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Greetings,
I am new to this site and Trakehners in general. Very interested and intrigued by the breed, but very don't own one (yet). I have some comments for some of you breeders out there.
I believe that you have an untapped market out there, that being all of us "beginning female adult riders". I'll bet their profile is something like my own history with horses. I rode as a teenager, just a simple foxtrotter QH cross, didn't ever show. Then "grew" up, went to college, got a job, married, maybe had kids, etc. Now finally that I'm in my early '40s, I have time to indulge and afford my old passion, horses.
In my case, I started hunt seat lessons about 2.5 years ago. It was like learning to ride all over again. I currently lease an older thoroughbred that's a great schoolmaster for me and I continue to take weekly lessons. With any luck I'll be in the market in another year for a horse of my own.
I saw the ATA booth at the Columbus Equine Affair a year ago or so, was very impressed and subsequently started visiting any sites I could find about Traks to learn more about the breed. So now I have my heart set on a Trak if I'm ever actually ready or able to buy.
From an outsider looking in my impressions are (no offense intended to anyone):
1- Gosh, they're beautiful, but awfully expensive
2- Is there only young stock out there?
3- The ads all say "To a good show or performance home only"
Let's be realistic, I need a horse that's been under saddle at least a year. Surely, there are some wonderful geldings out there that don't cost a fortune. I could promise a good home, but face it, at 40+ I'm not going to start doing the A circuit anytime soon.
One of the appeals of the Trakehner is the closed stud book and the inspection process, and I'm willing to pay for that to an extent. But, $12,000 - 15,000 for a weanling or yearling that wouldn't be rideable until at least 3 or 4 is a pretty steep buy-in price.
I think your best advertisement just might be us ladies hanging out at our barns comparing notes on trainers, breeds, etc. And while none of us are going to the Olympics anytime soon, we would take great pride in being able to talk a little bit about lineage and performance records, even if our own steeds weren't out there on those particular circuits.
Sorry to have gone on so long, but I just wanted to share my impressions with everyone. Those of you who are breeders are doing a wonderful job of promoting the breed (you convinced me) and obviously care about being good stewards and protectors of all the traits that truly make Traks unique. Keep up the good work!
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Re:Intro
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2002, 11:57:19 PM » |
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Hello, Linda, and welcome on board!
Your insights into Trakehners from the "outside" are appreciated, and your candor regarding your abilities and requirement are laudable.
I agree there is a market for the "reincarnated equestrian" who is coming back to horses after shelving their interest for the sake of family.
The disturbing fact is, many of these riders claim that they require an FEI level prospect or competitor and try to scoop up the more talented and promising youngsters. While everyone can have aspirations of FEI level competition (though I personally could never go as far in riding as one of my babies can under saddle!), the reality is that most of the people coming into riding in their 30s and 40s are not going to achieve those levels, are not able to correctly ride a horse with that kind of movement, and probably would not enjoy the independence, intellect and sensitivity that upper level horses often possess.
Compared to other breeds of horses (including Morgans, QH's, Arabs, Saddlebreds, TBs--not considering racing stock), warmbloods are more expensive to breed. Their relative rarity makes breeding stock expensive; the same applies to stud fees. Artificial insemination (fresh cooled semen or frozen) is the standard operating procedure in breeding warmbloods, and the veterinary expenses involved in that process can be astonishing. The inspections that are designed to help guarantee quality add to the expense. Warmbloods are generally started under saddle later than other horses, which means more feed & tlc go into them before they are "productive" horses.
As an aside, with most horses the biggest expense in having one for its lifetime is generally not the purchase price. Everything marketed for horses carries a premium--boarding, feed, tack, trailers, qualified trainers... It is kind of amazing to me that people will more readily pay out for a trailer to move their horse (let alone the truck!) than for the horse that is being moved!
At any rate, breeding is a crapshoot. We all do as well as we can in selecting good stock, making good crosses, evaluating the outcomes, culling poor stock, and so forth. But a top notch baby is never a guarantee. When you get one (or when your breeding program is consistent enough that you get pretty good ones fairly regularly), as a breeder you want that baby to go to a home where it has the best chance at grabbing the brass ring. We all want our "grandkids" to have the best life possible.... Also, for a large part, a breeder's foals are who will ultimately put the breeder on the map (or let the breeder fade into obscurity). Fair or not, showring success is taken as a primary indicator of quality. Thus, when you are looking at the nicer than average (and probably more expensive than average...) babies and older horses, you will find that a good performance home is desired.
A lot of serious amateur riders prefer to buy a young horse because they have the opportunity to raise the baby and bond during its childhood; they can control environmental factors that contribute to the finished quality, usability, and value of the horse such as feed, housing, and farrier attention; and they can wind up with a bargain when their baby grows up, if their pick turns out as well as anticipated. A young horse sometimes carries a higher price than the same horse will merit in 8 years. While a truly quality horse can be identified as a foal, and may well be correctly priced and a bargain at the early price (12000-15000 for a weanling or yearling can be a bargain if it grows to be an upper level competitor with the addition of several years of care and training), some may not be accurately priced because it can be difficult to exactly predict a young horse's potential. Even if the baby in question is a superstar to be, so many things can happen before it is fully mature. It could have a pasture or work-related injury that blemishes it and makes it unsound for FEI but serviceable for trail riding and lower levels; It may not get the qualified training it requires to reach the FEI levels; and so on.
My suggestion would be to really become a student of bloodlines, conformation, movement, and type in any horse you are looking at buying. In the lower price ranges there are horses to be found, though they may not be the picture of an Olympic candidate, or may not have the superior conformation that would make them standout breeding stock. If you are patient, realistic about your requirements and knowledgable about evaluating a possible purchase, you should have no trouble finding a Trakehner for you. Take a look at the saleslist on americantrakehner.com
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Knot E-Nuf Acres
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Re:Intro
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2002, 08:54:49 AM » |
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Promoting the Trakehner breed and the Stallions is a multi-faceted ongoing project for Trakehner lovers every where. We have lost so many wonderful Stallions in the past few years and even though there is an abundance of Quality Stallions out there they are not being utilized.
Show records seems to be a big issue. Not all Stallion owners have the means or ability to keep the Stallions in the lime light. That in no way means that these Stallions are inferior.
It was pointed out that many Stallions that have made the show scene in a big way have been gelded.
Some of us, and yes I am speaking of Donnerkeil OSB-A-S288 have to count on the youngsters to promote the stallion by proxy. I am not alone in this area of the Stallion promotion project.
Which goes back to the problem of getting the owners to post the show winnings.
We all need to work to get the owners of our youngsters to post those scores even if it means a little extra foot work for us.
The Trakehner breed is the Best.
;)
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fuzzy
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Re:Intro
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2002, 12:37:12 PM » |
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You are so right - it's too bad, though, that many breeders, and even us folk who just want one foal once every two to three years (or even just that special baby from one's favorite mare) don't seem to be willing to look for stallion candidates beyond the glossy, airbrushed fullpage ads for a face to fall in love with. There are some fabulous stallions (and some GREAT deals) in the smaller barns with tight budgets if people cared to look for them.
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Knot E-Nuf Acres
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Re:Intro
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2002, 12:49:36 PM » |
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How right you are. How do we get people past the politics and window dressing to see what is really out there? I was just looking at all the stallions on the ATA web site and there are so many approved stallions on there. If they were being utilized the Trakehner breed would grow and we would not constantly be hearing " a trakin-what?" when we identify our breed.
So how can we promote the unnoticed stallions? 
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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I think getting the breed promoted involves a lot more than increasing the number of Trakehners. Trakehners need to have high quality standards maintained and prove themselves in competition more uniformly (as opposed to only a couple of standouts) in order to get the following they deserve.
As to marketing a stallion without a great show career or already notable offspring, that is a task very difficult to undertake. The simple fact of the marketplace is that buyers recognize certain bloodlines and individual sires. The buyers learn about those horses by looking at show results, magazine articles, etc., and the horses heard about most are the ones who are ridden, trained, and/or owned by "names" because that is who gets the most press.
Good or bad, campaigning a stallion is an expensive undertaking as well as a full-time job. Without a show career or successful progeny (and successful in performance, as opposed to only on the line), it is an uphill battle. There certainly is a place for sweat equity in campaigning as opposed to only money, and the successful stallion owners without bottomless pocketbooks are generally putting in blood, sweat, and tears to carve a niche. Even then, by the time there are successful progeny upon which to build demand, the sire may be near the end of his breeding career.
My suggestion to any sport horse stallion owner would be to become a true expert on his bloodlines and phenotype, performance aptitude, and all progeny (including what types of mares he was bred to). Invest in really top notch advertising materials where possible (ie, maybe run the same ad in more than one publication, or for more than one season, but make it a good one; invest in a high class video to present him and his progeny; etc). Keep the horse in fit and athletic condition, even if he is not actively being campaigned. There is a big difference in appearance (topline, muscling, posture) with horses fit for performance and those left to their own devices, and showing a stallion at his best means having him in good, toned shape at all times. Be extraordinarily choosy about the mares to whom he is bred, especially in the beginning--quality over quantity will help to prove him early in his career.
And if he is a sporthorse sire, plan to breed sporthorses with him, instead of any old cross even to a nice mare--don't mix types. I think a lot of the problem with Trakehners is that they were a relatively hot commodity early on in the ATA's history. People with 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 Trakehners called them "Trakehners" for the cachet, which means that people who have only met one of those crosses may have no idea of what a Trakehner is even supposed to look like (ie, if the other 7/8 was Morgan, QH, Appaloosa, Arab, Saddlebred, and Clydesdale!). Bad experiences with one poor individual (whether the temperament came from poor handling, inbreeding, cross-breeding, etc) is enough to turn people off on Trakehners all together.
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fuzzy
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Re:Intro
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2002, 04:49:30 PM » |
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I don't believe that restricting the mares that a stallion covers is very productive. If I had a sporthorse stallion, went out of my way to advertise, and then turned away mare owners because their mares were mutts, or drafts horses, or whatever, I feel it could lead to a poor reputation in the customer service department. If a mare owner wants to breed an inferior mare, I would certainly discourage them, but ultimately, breeding (and to whom) is the mare owner's choice. And so what if the mare isn't sport horse? So the foal is destined to become a Mennonite carriage horse? Or a 4-H horse? Or a field hunter? Yes, is is preferable that the foals be competing and making a name for the stallion, but ultimately, happy customers NO MATTER what they do with the foals are what is important - because happy customers return and bring more customers with them.
As to bad individuals, they can occur even with careful breeding, and at that are as often a matter of taste as of genuine 'badness'. There are plenty of horses that would not be welcome in my backyard, but are suitable and even desirable to others, and vice versa.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Re:Intro
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2002, 07:38:25 PM » |
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I don't believe that restricting the mares that a stallion covers is very productive. If I had a sporthorse stallion, went out of my way to advertise, and then turned away mare owners because their mares were mutts, or drafts horses, or whatever, I feel it could lead to a poor reputation in the customer service department. If a mare owner wants to breed an inferior mare, I would certainly discourage them, but ultimately, breeding (and to whom) is the mare owner's choice.
I strongly disagree with this position. There is no greater advertising for a stallion than his progeny, and having babies on the ground of the type, conformation, temperament, and ability appropriate to the sire's type and breed standard is of paramount importance. As breeders we see how much a mare contributes to the ultimate quality of a foal, yet American riders (and breeders, unfortunately) very often disregard the "bottom" of the pedigree. The question is always "who is the sire?" A baby of poor type, conformation, temperament, or coordination, or one of distinctly "muttly" appearance, is the worst advertisement for a stallion, as no one will blame a poor result on the mare. Indeed, most will not even inquire as to who she is or from what lines she descends. So the whole burden will lay with the stallion.
Many of the huge breeders in Europe, some very well known performance moguls, so highly protect their stallions' reputations that they breed hundreds of mares each year yet allow only the most promising foals to survive much beyond birth. That is a cruel, harsh, and sickening reality, yet it does illustrate how much the quality of the offspring is anticipated to influence the perceived value of the sire (and the farm).
To breed to a particular stallion is NOT the mare owner's choice alone. A stallion owner has a responsibility to not just multiply equines but to make a positive contribution to the equine population. If a stallion owner suspects her horse is not the best cross for a mare (or if the mare is so poor she has no good mate), I believe it is the stallion owner's obligation to be forthcoming with that opinion. For a stallion owner to breed willy-nilly just because a mare owner has a pocketbook is irresponsible and not good horsemanship.
While it doesn't matter so much what the foal winds up doing (and that is often beyond the control of the stallion owner and the breeder as well), it DOES matter that the foal produced is of the best quality possible.
From another point of view, if one's goal is to boost the marketability of a stallion's foals (and therefore, his stud service), it would behoove one to make the best foals possible. Cross-breds (I don't mean Trak-Oldenburg so much, or other sporthorse crosses, but the WB-Saddlebred, WB-Draft, etc) do not typically find great prices in the marketplace, unless they are truly exceptional and already proven in performance.
I was just looking through a magazine and saw an ad for a Trakehner-draft priced at $2,500. Many WB stud fees are in the area of $2500--what does the price of that horse say about the quality of the horse, or the value of its breeding?
And when progeny of a stallion sell for so little, what motivation does the breeder (assuming one is breeding for the marketplace and not only for a personal horse) to choose that stallion over one whose offspring fetch better prices? The difference of a few hundred--or even a thousand or more--in a stud fee can often be offset by the higher value of the resulting foal. The same way a horse's purchase price is not generally a huge portion of its lifetime expenses, the stud fee is dwarfed by all of the other expenses incurred in producing a foal and raising it to a marketable age.
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Knot E-Nuf Acres
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Re:Intro
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2002, 10:37:13 AM » |
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I think you are over generalizing this issue. Just because a non-Trakehner Mare is bred with an approved Stallion does not in any way mean that a "Muttly" foal will be born. I believe that care should be taken in choosing the mare one breeds to however there are many wonderful, conformational correct non registered mares out there. The Trakehner was bred for versatility, If my Vet wants to breed two draft mares each year to be raised for fancy carriage horses that is a plus for the breed, not a deficit. what he sells them for is his business.
Let's face it the breed is by no means pure. We have TB and Arab approved stallions to enhance the breed. The mixing of blood has made the breed what it is today. The breed has transformed from plow horse to show horse over time.
"I was just looking through a magazine and saw an ad for a Trakehner-draft priced at $2,500. Many WB stud fees are in the area of $2500--what does the price of that horse say about the quality of the horse, or the value of its breeding?"
It is a personal issue as to what to charge for a foal or breeding fee. When people are looking to buy they try to get a bargain and haggle to get a lower price. Even for breeding fees clients want to get a price break Trakehners are horses. Not every client has Olympic Aspirations. Most people planning to to purchase are looking for a versatile talented horse at an affordable price that they can show in lower levels and take trail riding. Same with breeding, most people only want to breed a mare every once in a while. They want to grow their own show horse.
Those of us that actively concider ourselves "Breeding Farms " are a small cog in an extremely large wheel.
Selling breedings and foals for reasonable prices in no way cheapens the quality of the Trakehner industry. this also applies to breeding to non Trakehner mares. It simply makes it affordable for the normal back yard horseman on a budget. What better way to promote the breed and remove the stigma of Trakehners being too "HOT" than to have them be family horses. Breeding Trakehner or any other breed of horses is not a Get Rich Quick money maker and probably neverwill be. Being a responsible breeder is important but to deny a breeding to a non Trak mare is simply judgmental, foolishness.
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Suzette
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Re:Intro
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2002, 11:12:57 AM » |
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Well, I think both of you have good points.
I agree that all stallion owners should be selective to insure that they are not adding to the "unwanted" horse population. While we cannot be Policemen, we can assist in educating mare owners when they choose to (unwisely) reproduce a mare that is quite unlikely to produce a valued offspring.
Over the years, I have turned away quite a few mare owners, who needed an education as to the fact that just because a mare has a uterus, it does not mean that she is "breeding quality". I have also referred quite a few mare owners to stalliions that I felt were "more suitable" for their mares than were mine. This is a very important responsibility that I feel more stallion owners should work at. I know VERY well what my boys will do with certain types of conformational problems, and what things they can and cannot "fix". I take very seriously that we must be responsible for the horses that we are helping to produce, and those should be made with the best odds in their favor at birth.
I also think that just because a mare is not of traditional sport horse breeding, or has no papers at all, does not mean that the mare should not be bred. I have bred mares that were a lot nicer than some mares that had impeccible bloodlines, and those "mutts" made fabulous offspring! In doing so, though, you need also to make sure of the motives of the owner. I wouldn't breed one of those types if the owner was breeding to sell. This is irresponsible. If the owner was breeding with the intent of keeping, I would be more lenient. You have to accept the responsibility as to what that creature that you are creating is going to have as a life.
For instance, I bred once to a Shire mare. I thought long and hard on it, and agonized over it. However, the mare was shown very successfully in dressage through 1st level, and the owner was breeding strictly to make the foal his personal horse. The foal turned out to be lovely (beat out a lot of well bred traditional horses in-hand), and is going to go into professional training. He will have a fabulous life, is loved to death, and will probably go a lot farther in his training than a lot of more "traditionally bred" horses.
What is wrong with that?
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Re:Intro
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2002, 02:53:05 PM » |
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This whole issue comes down to what market one is attempting to find for one's stallion, and what is meant by promoting the Trakehner.
Campaigning a stallion through establishing a performance record and attempting to safeguard the quality of his foal crop in terms of what type of horse he is desired to produce is the best way to promote him in a certain segment of the marketplace. If the horse is a sporthorse, let him make sporthorses.
<<I believe that care should be taken in choosing the mare one breeds to however there are many wonderful, conformational correct non registered mares out there. >>
This is true. I am not talking about registered vs unregistered, but about type.
The original complaint was that ATA approved stallions were being underutilized. By whom? By Trakehner mare owners? By owners of any other breed of mare? Most people hesitate to take their purebred OSB mares to a stallion unless they can see progeny already, to get an idea of what to expect. If breeding Trak mares, you would want to see Trak babies.
If you want to breed your pet horse to make another pet horse (and this is not derogatory in any fashion--I have such a pet horse, a child of my other pet), and happen to like a particular stallion to go with your mare, wonderful. But those breedings are not necessarily going to do much in furthering that stallion's reputation as a Trakehner sire, as a sporthorse sire, or the Trakehner breed in general.
By way of illustration, when I looked at a mare to buy and told my vet that she was nice and her babies were nice but they were small, he told me that she was not a good Trakehner breeding prospect. His reasoning was that what people are expecting to see in the marketplace when they look for Trakehners are not small horses. If you are breeding miniature Trakehners, they are not true to the Trakehner image and marketing concept.
<<The Trakehner was bred for versatility, If my Vet wants to breed two draft mares each year to be raised for fancy carriage horses that is a plus for the breed, not a deficit. >>
I don't necessarily think this is a plus for the breed. I believe in the versatility of Trakehners, which is why one of mine goes in western pleasure as well as H/J. But a Trakehner is a versatile horse without being crossed to noncongruous types.
<<what he sells them for is his business.>>
I am not sure what this is about--reason for breeding & selling, or purchase price?
In either respect, I disagree. The stallion owner has a responsibility in agreeing to put these little lives out in the world. If there is no demand for a Trakehner-Draft cross other than with the person who breeds them, yet the person is breeding for other than personal use, I think that is a problem. I had an interesting experience when dog-shopping recently. Within the breed I was looking for, a breeder who creates litters of pups is basically guaranteeing them a home forever. For example, if one wound up in dog rescue, the breeder is expected to take it back. While horse breeding is not so regimented, I think that philosophy of responsibility for production from both mare & stallion owners would be a good thing.
As to the other possibility, while I certainly would not advocate price fixing of horses, the prices asked, advertised, and paid for a stallion's offspring has a great impact on his perceived value as a sire. My point was that, if I could breed to a Trakehner stallion for $2500 (I think that was Martini's last fee, for example), what do I think of a young horse already on the ground being marketed for $2500? I would wonder, why would that horse's foals be so cheap compared to other Trakehners and other warmbloods? What is wrong with them that they are so far below the rest of the market?An isolated instance where a quality horse is sold very low is one thing, but if those kinds of prices are seen often enough in the marketplace they diminish the perceived value of the stallion's foals.
<<Let's face it the breed is by no means pure. We have TB and Arab approved stallions to enhance the breed. The mixing of blood has made the breed what it is today. The breed has transformed from plow horse to show horse over time. >>
Bear with me here. OK, geez, I guess the only purebred is the Arab, since even the TB descends from the Arab. And back up the truck again--I guess there were those Arab type horses and the Tarpan like horses, so to find purebred we maybe have to go back to Eohippus. But no one is breeding Eohippus anymore so I guess the whole equine population is just a bunch of mutts, so we may as well breed whatever to whatever and forget about registries, breed types, and all of those things.
Come on--The Trakehner is one of the only "pure" WB breeds, meaning it has a closed stud book. Yes, TBs and Arabs ocassionally come in, not necessarily to enhance the breed but because those genetics are an integral part of the breed. Yes, the Trakehner type evolves somewhat depending on what is needed or in fashion at the time. But though he pulled a plow, the Trakehner never looked like a Clydesdale. In present state, the Trakehner is far from a draft-type horse. Yet if you want one to pull a plow, you could certainly find an older-type coarser purebred Trakehner. We do not need to cross-breed Trakehners to make the Trakehner versatile.
"It is a personal issue as to what to charge for a foal or breeding fee. When people are looking to buy they try to get a bargain and haggle to get a lower price. Even for breeding fees clients want to get a price break Trakehners are horses. Not every client has Olympic Aspirations. Most people planning to to purchase are looking for a versatile talented horse at an affordable price that they can show in lower levels and take trail riding. Same with breeding, most people only want to breed a mare every once in a while. They want to grow their own show horse. "
Sure it is a personal issue. But personal actions can impact public impression, and that is the trouble with marketing.
Are these one-time breeders that are going to establish the Trakehner, or that are going to resolve the original problem of underutilized stallions? I don't think so. Even people breeding for their own back yard like to pick a stallion who is somewhat of an equine nobleman. They are usually not sifting through stud books to find the diamonds in the rough to choose for breeding. Some may, most don't. A lot of mare owners pick stallions because they are pretty, because their trainer mentioned the name, or for whatever reason. It takes getting the horse in front of those people, and the ones with the best press win.
<<What better way to promote the breed and remove the stigma of Trakehners being too "HOT" than to have them be family horses. . . . Being a responsible breeder is important but to deny a breeding to a non Trak mare is simply judgmental, foolishness. >>
I love Trakehner family horses, and I have sold Trakehner babies with that "career goal." Why is it such a great way to promote Trakehners to make the point that if (and only if?) you mix them with something else, they will not be so "HOT" and will make OK family horses?
Again, not speaking of non-Trak. I referred to mares of different type, other than warmblood/sporthorse types.
<<I also think that just because a mare is not of traditional sport horse breeding, or has no papers at all, does not mean that the mare should not be bred. I have bred mares that were a lot nicer than some mares that had impeccible bloodlines, and those "mutts" made fabulous offspring! >>
Suzette, do you mean traditional sport horse breeding or type? Mutts may be very beautiful (the "mutt" which is not a purebred) but they can also look like a pile of spare parts (the "mutt" which has features of 11 individual breeds and looks like a Frankenhorse). I am not saying that pedigree alone makes the foal, whether pedigree is pure Trak or SWB or Dutch or whatever. I am talking about type.
There is not anything necessarily wrong with breeding a part-draft pet horse. I have ridden some excellent Belgian crosses and Percherons, also. But I cannot see how making those crosses is the way to establish a purebred approved stallion's reputation as a sire of Trakehners, of warmbloods, or as sporthorses. It all turns on what kind of niche you are trying to carve for your stallion.
In your case, Suzette, your stallions are themselves proven at FEI in dressage and have sporthorse progeny, Trak and otherwise. They have somewhat of a reputation made and have the luxury of producing the occasional onorthodox "pet" without disrupting their positions as sporthorse sires. That is a different scenario from a stallion with no performance career or prospects, no established performing offspring, and no budget with which to create the media illusion that some stallion owners can.
And I cannot see how crossing Trakehners to all of the draft and other non-sporthorse types is going to help the reputation of the Trakehner! If all people see are crosses, they will not even know what a Trakehner is like, which I think is part of the problem we are all currently militating against (like the 1/8 Trakehner kook who turns off a whole barn, etc).
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Suzette
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Re:Intro
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2002, 03:34:30 PM » |
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I would have to say that I agree with you on the important accounts.
First, I believe that having a proven performance career in the discipline of choice is Extremely Important if you are standing a stallion. I know when I am looking for potential stallions for my own mares, that is actually the first thing that I look for. (Right, wrong, or indifferent.) I want to know that the genetics to succeed in this sport are Proven to be in there. Sure, there are others out there who also have the genetics - but how do you know?
Second, the Trak has a problem with "perceptions" in the marketplace today, and everything should be done to improve upon that.
Third, you ask why these ATA stallions are all standing out there and getting No mares. I think that is primarily because we do not have a large enough mare base to support this number of stallions. We keep approving more stallions, but that doesn't mean that mares will come running! Yes, they should advertise more, but these ads cost far more money than they can ever bring in. Stallions DO NOT MAKE MONEY.
Only wealthy people can advertise extensively enough to bring in enough mares to make a difference to the breed.
So, where are the mares? A lot of them have gone to other breed organizations. They are breeding to Oldenbergs, Hannos and Holst. Why? Because the Trak reputation isn't that good here in America. How do we fix that? We need an infusion of excitement.
Peron was a boon for us in America. We need more like that that people can point to and say, "I want one of those". Maybe Windfall will help that in the Eventing world. We need another Abdullah in the Jumping community. We need another Peron in the Dressage community. Yes, the more we have out there, the better. And the bigger names, the better.
I can't count the number of times that I have been at a show, and have people say, "That's a Trakehner? I can't believe it! I thought they were all nut cases! This horse is wonderful! I can 't believe it!" These experiences are the best advertisements we can get...
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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AMcGrady
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I LOVE Trakehners!
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Re:Intro
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2003, 10:12:01 PM » |
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I don't mean to be nasty but, in defense of the Trakehner not being in the public eye more than they are, I think it is because they are not over-bred. In other words, I see Hannos EVERYWHERE! I am absolutely not attracted to the breed as a whole. I feel as though it has lost some of it's purity because of over-breeding. To be frank, I don't even know what a true Han. is supposed to look like! That is not true of the Trakehner. Yes, there is a closed stud book, but that is what maintains the purity of the breed. I own a TB mare that I bred to a Trakehner. The foal is not eligible for the pure Trakehner registry. I find no shame in owning an Anglo Trakehner. If that is what turns people away then they obviously need more education on the breed. Isn't the Trakehner the only true warmblood breed??? I would think that is because of a closed stub book. To me, I would rather have a horse who is registered to one registry who is pure to its heritage than a horse who is approved to several registries but not pure to one breed. (If that makes any sense.) How are you supposed to have breed standards if there is more than one registry your horse is approved by?
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Amy McGrady
*Cute as a Bugsear (Bugs), 1986 TB mare ~ Isella x Annie Somebody
*Pippen (Frodo), 2003 Anglo Trakehner gelding ~ Paramoure x Cute as a Bugsear
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Karim
Guest
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Re:Intro
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2003, 02:13:08 AM » |
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Bear in mind that some of the best in our breed who left their marks (and on other breeds as well) have been ANGLO-TRAKEHNERS:
Arogno
Consul
Mahagoni
Michelangelo, etc...
Or ANGLO-ARABS:
Ramzes
Burnus
and maybe now through the 2 sons of Stradivari: Key West & K2 => Upan La Jarthe
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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Re:Intro
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2003, 06:30:20 AM » |
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With all this "pure-bred" discussion going on, I would like to add some thoughts and facs about this discussion in Germany we have right now. The International Trakehner Meeting in Leverkusen this sring hosted a number of high quality seminars, speakers were among others, Lars Gehrmann, Dr. Brockmann (breed director in Celle, Hannover), Dr. Nissen (breed director in Holstein) and Prof. Bruns (Dep. of genetics and animal breeding of the university of Göttingen).
It is a heated and very controversial discussion in Germany to allow "outside" stallions of high quality into the breed on the basis of selective "experiments" in oder to work against a common development these days: some of the best and highest ranked mares in the breed are covered by Hannoverians and Oldenburgs to produce foals for those registries that have a HUGE market right now. Over 400 Trakehner mares were taken out of the stud books in 2003. That is a loss we cannot tolerate. Thus the idea of allowing e.g. selected Donnerhall or Rubinstein sons to breed to a selected group of Trakehner mares. Obviously, the majority of the breeders are not favoring this model and refuse it. As a regulations change needs all 15 votes of the board, we can be sure that it will not make it inot the official agenda of the Verband, BUT
the Verband regulatiosn CLEARLY state that outside blood IS allowed IF agreed on by all board members. Breeders like B. Wahler, who have had tremendous success with their own Hannoverian stallions on their own Trakehner mares are trying very hard to open a "Second Studbook" for "Half Trakehners". In my eyes, a total waste of time (and genes). Products like His Highness (2002 Hanoverian champion stallion by Hohnstein-Donnerhall) or Donautanz (by De Niro-Caprimond) work well for Wahler and his friends, but ultimately will set a trend in the breed that is not going to help the Trakehner: we lose mares. And it simply is as you all stated before: a 50% Hanoverian/50% Trakehner cannot be a Trakehner. Period. We can utilize these horses for promoting the Trakehner as the best and most secure refiner in WB breeding and it should make us proud to point out that a champion stallion in Hannover is 50% (BTW, not for the first time!), but the mosse antler does not belong on this horse.
The market for Trakehners is just as bad or good in Europe as it is for other breeds. And one of my goals in my "Trakehner life" is to make that true all around the world.
The only way we will successuflly achieve this is education, education and education. So keep up the good work of spreading the news!!
Apart from that, we have Trakehners competing in the international top in show jumping, dressage and eventing and there are more, younger ones to follow. The time of the breed needeing more athleticism and attention from sport riders are over.....that is something that most outside WB breeders still need to understand!!
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Eileen
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I LOVE Trakehners!
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Re:Intro
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2003, 03:39:47 PM » |
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Maren,
I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. If you take this cross breeding further down the road than the current lines such as His Highness, what do you end up with? There will eventually be only one warmblood that is a mix of all. With the dominance of numbers of the "coarser" warmbloods, eventually we would lose the Trakehner influence -- forever. Then, where do you go for the improvements, refinements, etc.? Where do you get this wonderful personality that would be bred out of them? Yes, we can add more thoroughbred and more Arab blood, will that be enough? We cannot let the short term big money override the long term good of not only our beloved traks, but the entire warmblood family. Where would all the other warmbloods be with no Trakehners? In the long run, everyone loses.
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