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Topic: Help 5 year old horse with bad attitude (Read 2313 times)
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Schonkries
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Hello everyone,
I have a 5 year old 3/4TK by Schonfeld out of my TB/TK hunter mare. My Mare was a wonderful sweetheart never bucked or kicked a day in her life. So I bred her and I got Maverick. Since he was a weaning he has always had a bad attitde about doing things he did not want to do. I have put him with several different trainers over the years. I had him with a western trainer to start him, then moved him to a hunter trainer where he spent more time on his hind legs then all 4. We finally got him over that. Then I moved to OR and had to change trainers. THe first one I had was afraid of him so I put him with a different trainer with experience in young horses. He was doing great. THen Since at this point he was only 4 I gave him 3 months off to be a horse. OF course as bad luck would have it, the trainer who did such a good job with him moved out of state. I have him now with a really good hunter trainer, she just has no expereince dealing with horses with bad attitudes. She suggested I send him to a cowboy to improve his attitude. This is my first baby I rasied, so I may have had a few problems. I was just hoping for some advice.
Maverick was started as a two year old and gelded at the same time. He had a kidney infection which almost cost him his life at 10 months. So he has had a rough start. I also have had a vet look him over top to bottom, massages and a chriopractor look at him, so no health issues, just behavioral. I do believe there is hope for him. THere are days when I go out and ride him and he is perfect, does everything I ask. THen the next day he decides not to do what I want and he throws tantrums, by bucking , backing up, rearing. IF he could he would throw himself on the ground and scream like a kid. As a weaning he did this as well. He has gotten better which is why I still have him and the fact that I love him to death. IF anyone who has more experience dealing with horses like this any advice would be most welcome. THank you for everything.
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acottongim
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You named him Maverick - there is your problem. KIDDING!!! Just couldn't resist (in kind of a weird mood this am).
Seriously... what did the "good" trainer do with him/to him? Was he/she more "firm", did they ignore the tantrums and work through it? Did they make him work harder when he fought?
From the surface (and please don't take offense because I don't mean any - I learned the hard way with my first baby too), it sounds like he is spoiled. He is the baby, he is the one that almost died etc.... it is harder to be "tough" with those types and TKs are smart and will play that for all it is worth. Doesn't help if he has also gone to trainers that are intimidated by him. Handeling/riding he should receive the same FIRM, CONSISTENT hand at all times. You don't allow him to walk on top of you on the ground, you don't allow him to buck under saddle - if they do something wrong they work harder and get reprimanded immed. But I'm not saying that you beat the living snot out of him - but he might THINK you are going to. My horses all know what my "growl" means - they will get in trouble if I have to go beyond it. Not that mine are 100% perfect angels, but generally my horses have good ground manners and are good undersaddle.
On the lunge - if the horse bucks/rears/spins etc they get pushed harder, and they are not allowed to go a speed or a direction that I don't set. Lunging is NOT for getting the bucks out, it is WORK (and getting the bucks out  ).... make sense?? Don't ever let him do something wrong. Since this has been going on for a while it is going to take a LONG while to get out of him =- and you can't be one disciplinarian and the trainer another and the barn help another. You ALL have to be on the same page.
You can send to a cowboy (that inspires negative connotations BTW), but make sure that he is not overly harsh. TKs are by and large sensitive and smart horses. IME if you BEAT a Tk you will get a fight - you aren't going to force them, you have to get them to work with you (ditto for T'breds btw) not against you. I'm not saying you can't smack them on the shoulder for being naughty (or use a whip/spur etc) but you can't use the discipline harshly or unnecessarily.
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Elfe
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Is this the same horse who, when he was a two year old, a trainer was using a crop on to make him go forward ?
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fuzzy
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What kind of turnout does your guy get? You might be able to get some help from other horses - if you can turn your guy out with at least one horse that will dominate him - thoroughly. It can help to break a habit of trying to be dominant, and also (hopefully) teach him to appreciate a boss (you) who will be his boss without being mean (like that other horse).
And NEVER allow a horse to buck on the lunge line. If he'll buck under empty tack, he'll also buck under occupied tack. If/when he bucks or rears, he needs to go to the woodshed BIG TIME. If he's nice, give him an easy day. I'm not talking about pussy-footing around him, though. It sounds mostly like respect issues. I agree with giving him simple and varied exercises with lots of positive reinforcement to prevent him being sour. If he (and you) are secure enough to leave the arena for some different scenery, that is also worth a try. Having been through several trainers, and started a tad young, he may already be ring-sour and prefer to learn things like leg-yield on a two-track in the woods instead of in the ring.
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Joy
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You named him Maverick - there is your problem. KIDDING!!! Just couldn't resist (in kind of a weird mood this am).
Laugh if you will, but the first thing I would do is change his name. Names have energy, and they also affect how you treat the horse. I had an EFT client who had a cat named Skitters. The cat wouldn't come out, hid under the bed, etc. She's been like that since they got (and named) her. I urged my client to change her name, and she did, to Samantha. Within two weeks the cat was jumping up and sleeping on laps, looking for attention, and not skittering around any more.
My filly's name was Pyxie. She was becoming very unruly (mischievous pixie), and I changed her name to Magic. Yes, it has made a difference. Whether the difference is in how I think of her is of little importance; the outcome is the same.
I agree that 2 years old is far too young to be started. It's a great time to do ground work, and indeed you can train a horse from the ground to do just about everything except carry weight.
If he's having really naughty days, are you sure it's only attitude? What kind of bit are you using? Have you thought of using a bitless bridle or a hackamore? What about the fit of the rest of the tack? Anything pinching? How does the saddle fit?
When he rears or bucks on the longe line, he should be sent forward! It's pretty hard to buck if he's got a big trot going. And I've gotta tell ya, if I can't trust a horse on the ground, I'm sure not going to get on him.
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Schonkries
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Thanks for all your input. Maverick is going to a trainer who is good at working with problem horses and will hopefully set him straight. We he comes back I'll be sure to change a few things. He will be put in a stall and then turned out by himself so he can't feel like his pasture is his domain, which he does now. I hope to find a good hunter trainer that has patience and can help with getting him in a consistent training program. I think that could be where my problem is. I work nights four days a week and sleep during te day so my schedule is not consistent. I'll try and think of a new name for him. I know two was young to start him but he was getting bored with just ground work and needed a job to do. He was more like 2 1/2 years old. THanks again for all the advice. I'll let you all know how it goes.
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Eileen
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I know this isn't the "acceptable" method of training, but it helps me. I don't have any with issues such as you mention, but we have had a few dominance issues from time to time (both with horses and one large male rottie). Clicker training works wells for me without having to address issues head on -- gets them to minding you as a habit without even realizing they are surrendering their "dominant" position. Also helps keep boredom out of the picture -- can do a few "tricks" that entertains their minds and they are still doing what you ask -- it's sneaky but it works.
I have also been told that Betsy Steiner uses it with horses that have bad attitudes.
My horses love training so much that they are sometimes jealous of the others and can't wait for their turn. They line up and watch. One filly jumped the fence twice as a youngster when she realized it was her turn -- couldn't wait for me to come get her -- just came running up to me. We did have to stop that, but wasn't hard to do. YOu can also use it to make them braver and bolder -- nothing is scary if they think it's "part of the game". Kids running up out of the woods carrying pinwheels or ballons and blowing whistles are just part of the game to them. One downfall though is that sometimes it's hard to desensitize them in strange places without sending other horses into cardiac arrest. Other riders can get a little upset  
Anyway, it does take a little to learn how to really use clicker training -- and you don't develop a horse that expects (and I won't tolerate one who demands) treats all the time if you do it right. And a positive side -- you don't have to do marathon trainings -- five minutes here and there throughout the day as you have time works wonders -- then every time they see you -- they are hoping you are going to come "play" -- and you can be the boss.
Just a thought.
Good luck with your boy.
Eileen
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Beckie
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Is your youngster a bully when he is around other horses? He does sound a tad spoiled and disrespectful of boundaries.
If he is 5, it is the age where they REALLY want to move up in the pecking order. I tell people I want to send my 4 yo away to boarding school and get them back at 5 after they are through this.
If he is trying to get his way with everyone (horses included) then he needs to learn that he is not the king... and there is no better way than to let another horse teach him. A stern but intolerant gelding or mare would be a great pasture mate for a month or so. This could be reinforced in his work with humans and then maybe his adolescent phase will be over.
Best of luck. 
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Leena
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Is ulcer have been ruled out ?
You are mentionning that his behavior is moody; that makes me think a lot like ulcers problems.
Otherwise, I am not going to knock another time on the 2 yrs starting..Anyway, this won't change anything at this point.
Don't forget the terrible 5's where they just act stupidly, in reaction to acceptance of aids. Authority and acceptance has to be present in his life.
I believe you are doing the good things for him !
Good luck !
Leena
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Schonkries
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I wanted to give everyone an update on Maverick. He went to a real horseman(cowboy) who taught him how to accept leg and hand. He was there for 3 months and since then he has not reared,bucked or been sucking back and fighting as much. I moved him to a hunter trainer who is good with young horses and she has done a great job with him. He is going forward and jumping great. He even is starting to accept the bit and come round fora little bit. He is only 5 going on 6. His attitude he had before is gone, and now his worst problem is being a little spooky and being a young horse. I am so happy to finally have a horse that I can ride. I hope to show him in some small shows this fall. MY trainer has done a great job with him. He is a very sensitive horse that takes a sensitive rider. Thank's to all the great advice. Jen
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Joy
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Jen, thanks for the update. That's great news. Congratulations on getting your horse turned around.
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