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Topic: Characteristics of Graditz and Condus Lines? (Read 5196 times)
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DK
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A breeder friend recently mentioned to me that Traks from the Graditz line tend to be very hot and those with Condus breeding tend to have bad feet, that's why she stays away from Traks with those bloodlines. Any opinions/experiences with this? I tend to take generalizations like these (regarding an entire line) with a grain of salt, but was just wondering if anyone finds this to be at all valid. Also, I am generally able to find pedigree information quite easily, but not much beyond that. Is there some reference book with information on temperaments, line characteristics, performance information, usv.? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
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Navar
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I had also heard that the Graditz horses are very hot. I also heard that the Condus line produces difficult temperaments. With regard to Condus, the person I spoke with at the ATA annual meeting had a colt by Leonidas (by Condus) who was a real terror, i.e. knocking her down while in his stall, until he was gelded. She said that Leonidas is wonderful himself, but his get are usually difficult and she alluded that it was through Condus that the difficult temperament is passed down. However, she did say the colt is just gorgeous and said nothing about conformational faults. As a qualifier to all of this: this is just hearsay and not first-hand knowledge.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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I have neither owned nor known a Condus descendant but HAVE heard that horses from that line can be "hot."
I do however own a Graditz daughter and known other Graditz kids and would have to say that those I have known are not hot. They can have some level of sensitivity, perhaps more pronounced than in some other lines.
My mare can be startled, and her response to something new is always a little hop into the air, coming down with front legs spread apart, followed by her characteristic snort and sniff. She is not a bolter. Of her three children two are absolutely rock-solid and unflappable, and the other has mama's hop-snort-sniff habit.
To mama's credit, she is very refined and elegant with lovely movement for dressage and also fine form over fences. She is clearly stamped by Graditz though perhaps even more refined by her own dam. She has straight though fairly light legs, big round feet, excellent angle in her hind end (hip-stifle-hock), and a strong back. Ironically she is NOT a refining mare and reproduces her foals' sires fairly accurately--enough that we call her Little Miss Xerox.
I would not dismiss Graditz line horses out of hand--the test of temperament will lie with the individual. And Graditz was quite prepotent in throwing his own characteristics, although I must say with respect to my mare, those characteristics do not necessarily come through in the 2nd generation.
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DK
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Kammerland Trakehners
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That's great. My mare is rock solid. I can pull her off the trailer 20 minutes before a clinic, throw her tack on, and off we go. She is being bred to a fine young stallion with both Condus and Graditz lines. The stallion himself seems to have a very solid temperament. I had just recently heard that the Condus and Graditz lines could be hot. I figured that just because the stallion isn't hot doesn't mean he's not going to throw hot babies. Because he is still young himself I don't have any of his offspring for comparison. I would really like to preserve my mare's good temperament. I like this young stallion enought that this won't dissuade me from breeding to him, I'm just pondering what my chances are of having (another) hot baby. Thanks for the info.
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Karim
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2005, 04:06:26 AM by Karim »
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DK
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Kammerland Trakehners
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I am asking about the full line of offspring of both stallions, and whether there has been a noticeable trend towards a certain temperament. It would be unrealistic to research the training of hundreds of horses. I wish I had that much time and ambition.
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Canterup
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I LOVE Trakehners!
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I have no knowledge of either of these bloodlines, but I was just reading a very heated thread on the Ultimate Dressage BB. Here is the quote from one of the posters :
"The Graditz line can be very hot, and the Condus line often have poor feet. Before everyone screams at me...this is based on *the horses I have personally know, have worked on and dealt with*, and it's not just a few. And this is just MHO. Again, there's always the chance you will not get those characteristics, but be aware."
Not sure what the truth in the post is, but thought I would share.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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First of all, there are no guarantees in breeding (or in just about any other thing having to do with horses). Any "general trends" you may hear about are probably derived from a small number of people's experience with a small number of horses of that line. That is about the only way information like this can surface; unless someone else has the time and ambition to research every horse of a particular lineage and all of its environmental factors that could have contributed, positively or negatively, to its temperament.
My best suggestion to you is to evaluate your mare and figure out which way you would like to improve the temperament of the foal. The mare will impact the foal a lot more in this regard than will the stallion since she is the one bringing up baby. If your mare is a wench, realize that you may have to spend a lot more time with the foal yourself than might otherwise be necessary, and may have to wean it sooner, etc.
Then go out and meet, in person, the stallions you are interested in. If the stallion has offspring, meet those babies or at least speak with their owners about temperament and other issues. If the stallion has no offspring yet, you have to decide to wait until later or be one of the guinea pigs that tests him out.
Take all of your findings and look at them with respect to everything you have heard about horses of those bloodlines and make your decision.
Bloodlines are extremely important but don't for a moment think of breeding ONLY on lines--a lot of horses look great on paper but just don't meet expectations once they are born, and that goes for all factors (conformation, etc), not just temperament.
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fuzzy
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I don't know anything about Condus other than that his line is popular. I have been told that the Graditz son Pennant is a real doll to handle, and I know from experience that Donnerkeil is a sweetie. He'd been mishandled before I started riding him (I was strongly advised NOT to ride him) so he was a handful to start with but came around nicely. I ended up being able to let some of my younger students ride him bareback or cool him out for me. You can't do that with a hot horse. My own Graditz grandson (by Donnerkeil out of an Arab) is a dream to handle unless he gets too much protien. He's got some get-up-and-go but is very calm, attentive and a quick study. I'd have a few more horses of the Graditz line if I could. One thing I've observed that some folks might not care for after being around several horses by Graditz is jealousy. Once they attached to you they often do not like the thought of having to share you - and my guy gets very offended at the thought of having to cooperate with anyone else.
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EclypseSporthorses
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Fuzzy,
I agree. Though my stallion is not from this line, shows jealousy of other horses if is in his pasture and sees me working with another horse.
On the subject of the 'hotter' bloodlines Jim & I were discussing this topic this morning and he brought up a good point. Are there breeds that we all consider 'hotter than other breeds'?
Do we? Is the Trakehner one of them? Are these 'hotter' lines simply more athletic?
Though we all often take offense at the Trakehner being refered to as hot, we must look at the breed as a whole
(the line-Condus/Ramzes produced Olympic level athletes)
and admit that the breed is bred to be a successful athlete, to be athletic, intelligent and powerful, and sensitive to our requests. Though many well trained horses of many breeds can be owned/ridden by beginners, in general Jim points out that we probably would not encourage a first time horse owner to own many of the more athletic breeds (hot?)
My point is that I see many horses acting a certain way because of the training. Some of the best 4-H and pony club horses I see are Arabians! One mare in particular packs around 3 different children, who don't take lessons and don't ride very well, though she takes care of them, bareback or saddled-western or hunt- speed or pleasure all year long.
She is amazing. And there are many more like her, though you mainly here about the 'hot' Arabian, not the gentle baby sitters.
Jim says there are hotter breeds, and I agree a little, though I believe mostly it is how any horse is trained.
I also agree that there are no guarantees in breeding and that this 'rumor' on these lines probably did start from a small group of people and almost takes on a life of it's own.
Sadly, the Trakehner in general has gotten this type of 'rumor' started about it with the same myth? that they are in general too hot...and I have read threads on how many of you disagree that the breed is hot.
I have trained many horses from different types of bloodlines and breeds... and have found more of what Fuzzy said to be true...very often there is a horse that people have a negative opinion about, like Fuzzy's stallion with that previous owners had trouble with him saying "dont ride him", then you have Fuzzy train the stallion and now you have a horse that young riders can cool out bareback!!
Folks it is the same horse, the same bloodline... only the trainer changed.
I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to speak out on the horses behalf. Do you know the person you quoted from the other bb? neither do I, nor do you know me, my opinion is that you shouldn't judge a whole line on these " I heard so and so from a bb from a trainer? that who knows? I don't know this trainer, though I know horses and believe that horses are at their base very loving and forgiving, willing dance partners and when there are problems with them,
it is most often not the horses' fault... it is often the management of the said horse or the way it is handled.
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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fuzzy
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Well, Donnerkeil wasn't my horse (unfortunately). I was just the barn trainer and the one who was willing to give him a chance. He made very good on it. The warning came from someone whose horsey advice I would normally put a lot of faith in, but she hadn't actually worked with the horse. I was willing to stick my neck out for the stallion because I hadn't ever seen a 'bad' Trakehner so someone must have made him that way. That being the case, it took a lot of time and carrots but he did come to trust again, and even show at Training level. He could have gone much further with more time, or if he'd been treated well at the start, but now he's just enjoying life as a breeding stallion with some of his kids getting out into the world to make his name for him. And they're doing a fine job of it.
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Amanya
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Life is Choices
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Just some basic input for folks: my mare is a granddaughter of Condus, her sire Templeritter. She is wonderful. Very sweet, Smart and willing. Not hot, silly or stupid -- well, she's stupid when she comes across goats with bells on their collars! And white cows. She thinks only horses should be white -- brown ones are ok. That's about it for "hotness".
She is definitely a one-person mare. It's as though she has an "inner circle" of folks she will truly interact with. She's polite to other people, likes them around, but her true affection is handed out carefully. From what I was told, Templeritter was like that, too. He and his owner, Ursula Liakos, had an incredible bond.
I know this hardly scientific analysis here, but it's good to pass on around. BTW, her feet are excellent.....yep, my only "complaint" are white cows and ringing goats......
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Eileen
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Trakehners Then and Now available through the ATA has info on the mare lines and is a good reference book.
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Jennifer
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Just thought I'd add my two cents about my personal experience with an offspring of Condus.
I used to own a Condus daughter and she had absolutley the best feet. Every farrier that trimmed her (she did not need shoes) commented favorably about not only the shape but the texture of her hooves, and I rode her about 5 or so times a week both inside and outside, so she wasn't a pasture potato. I found her a retirement home recently where she is just trail ridden. Her new owner cannot believe how good her feet are, either.
As far as temperament goes, she is a very sweet, very smart horse. She was a quick learner and light to ride. She never bucked, acted "mare-ish", or acted annoyed even when her less than expert owner (me) acted like a klutz.
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Erhard
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Sorry - Sometimes I feel a bit tired to hear "hot" or "bad feet" or "straight hind legs" or "small hoofs and feet" about sires who have left the breeding stage already but did everything what a sire can do for the breed.What I learned is that Graditz is one of the foundation sires of the American Trakehner breed-producing numbers of outstanding horses. And in a different forum months ago we discussed the fortune what Condus did for the whole breed and that we are missing his genes here in Germany and you lucky american breeders keep such a big "herd" of his genes.
Arogno,for example,one of the most important foundation sires over the last 50 years,was called in his first years as a "small cat" with small feet,hot temperament and overall no stallion presence at all.What did this unforgotten personality for the breed worldwide,for competition,the breed and for most of the warmblood breeds too.
I only can agree with Christina and Tannenwald:Think about an athletic horse and don't we all try to breed with the idea and hope to get horses - easy to handle of course,not hot for us or their handlers but with the potential for high level in competition,but don't they need a special way of being and getting hot for being sucessful on high level in competition.Most times "hot" is only a problem of that special rider and handler.And pay much more attention to the dam's side,by watching and knowing your mare,you will know what you will get and what you want.Excuse my "german english" and controversal words,would be happy to go into a discussion - especially on behalf of "such bloodlines".
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DK
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Kammerland Trakehners
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Grüße Erhard,
Ich bin mit Ihnen einverstanden. Ich wunderte gerade mich über Erfahrungen mit den bloodlines. Ich verstehe Ihre Ansichten und warum Sie sie haben. Entschuldigen Sie bitte mein Deutsches, erlerne ich noch und es kann eine schwierige Sprache sein.
Respekt
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ceci
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I have a Potentate son and it seems that all Potentate kids have his kind and laid back disposition. Does any one know about Potentate? He is a Condus son.
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shadytrake
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Don't forget about Advocate by Graditz. He is such a people lover. I have a gelding by him out of a TB mare and OMG what a GREAT temperament! He is the most easy going and forgiving boy.  He will be 3 in June and I just can't wait to climb up and walk around.
He is definitely NOT hot--refined and energetic, yes. 
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TwinGates
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Welcome back to the forum, Erhard! And thanks for your comments. I think we can sometimes focus so much on a single aspect that we miss the larger picture.
Both sires consistently produced performance horses - several @ the highest levels (click progeny under each @ ATA website). In the final analysis, isn't this what we want to ride and/or breed?
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Maren
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Most of the "hotness" is really a different perspective of what we individual humans ask from a horse. A horse most people would probably classify as "hot" is just right for me, for example.
Different example:
One of the most laid back and easy tempered stallions of all time in this breed is probably the late Amadeus (by Kassiber-Schöner Abend), who was the champion in 1977 and ever since then lived at the Hörstein stud farm, where he was the family's most favorite riding horse, even for the kids. He was just plain wonderful. And because of that, many of the mares that were hard to handle, not very ridable, hot and probably should never have been used for breeding in the first place were covered by him, he was supposed to throw his friendly nature to all their offspring. Well, guess what, egentics don't work that way and he didn't. Now the rumor is out that Amadeus' kids were hard to handle......
Regarding Graditz and Condus, there is the ATA approved Tzigane who IS by Graditz out of a Condus dam and boy oh boy, shouldn't he be the hottest, worst footed stallion alive? He isn't. In fact, I think he's terribly nice and from my point of view as a competitive RIDER he is just perfect for the upper levels of sport, he has the mind and the body to excel in eventing and I sure hope he will, and if it is only to stop these totally nonsense posts!!
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Sally Ann
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Interesting comments re Amadeus. I have a granddaughter of his and she is exactly how you describe the stallion. She was just started under saddle this winter and she is 12 years old. Maren, you remember my Lucy?
Pedigree and photos are on my web site. Look for her under the Mares heading.
www.oakhollowstable.com
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shadytrake
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Maren-I agree with you. Too many times have I overheard the comment in the hunter world "she needs to longe that horse more to get him/her quiet."  This is the first and foremost reason that I switched to the jumpers and dressage.
I don't want to ride a "push button" horse. I want to ride a horse with brains who will challenge me to be a better rider. I don't want to just be a passenger.
Trakehners are just that-intelligent. Some might require "different techniques" but isn't that the way with people?  If we were all the same, we would live in a pretty BORING world. 
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Leena
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This is really interesting, since my mare is in foal of a graditz's son.When I went to see him, I thought he was one of the quiet stallion I ever seen, and so handsome.
Now, I would like to know what discipline they perform the most; dressage or jumping ?
My mare is now a confirm jumper mare which was shown in her bloodlines. I am saying this that way because she will turn 4 yo and I can see it clearly now.
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TwinGates
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Graditz was a good jumper, but he competed mainly in dressage (had an amazing trot!). His sire Rondo was an upper-level (not certain M or S - Maren?) jumper in Germany.
He produced both jumpers and dressage horses. Ibsen was a GP Dressage horse, Advocate a GP jumper and the youngest approved Graditz son, Tzigane is doing well in eventing. My suggestion is to look @ stallion's dam sire - may give you a clue. For example: Advocate has produced both jumpers & dressage horses, but seems to be more influential in the jumping disciplines. With Abdullah as his dam's sire, that makes perfect sense!
Hope that helps & good luck w/your foal! 
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