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Topic: US Mare Owners.............. (Read 3845 times)
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Canterup
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I LOVE Trakehners!
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This is a poll............. Would US Trakehner mare owners breed to an ATA licensed Arabian Stallion for refinement? Thanks in advance for your responses!
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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In theory, yes. It would depend greatly on the stallion and on what characteristics the mare possessed.
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Sovereign Farm
ata
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KALUA by Heling
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Like already posted, it depends a lot on the stallion... his conformation, movement, temperament, etc. I bred a very nice imported Matador mare to the Arabian stallion Aul Magic and plan to breed back if the foal is as nice as I expect it will be. A lot depends on the mare, too. My mare, Himmlische, is a large framed, large producing mare that could use some refinement. She is the only one of my mares that I would consider an Arabian stallion for. In the future, her daughter (by Kaspareit) will probably be a good cross with an exceptional Arabian stallion.
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Karim
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I think that'll all depend on one's "breeding objectives". As a small breeder, one would always have some concerns, but as a larger breeder, one can take some chances. It also depends on the stallion. And also one does not NEED to go an arabian stallion for refinement. That goal may be reached oterwise.
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Navar
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Yes, certainly if I had a coarser mare who needed some refinement. I think the Arabs are really good for adding alot of pretty in appearance and floaty/airy movement. Plus you get the bonus of double registry with Half-Arabian papers. Also, the International Arabian Horse Association has established an Arabian Sporthorse Nationals in addition to their regular Nationals program because of the growing appeal of sporthorses.
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Bruboj
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I love Trakehners!
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Interesting topic. I have an Arabian stallion that I'm considering having inspected by the ATA. He's currently showing second level, schooling third. I think he can offer refinement, a great disposition, and a free range of motion.
So, do you think Trakehner mare owners would breed to this stallion?
(See attached)
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Tareo
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Canterup:
Nice stallion!
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Sovereign Farm
ata
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Posts: 481
KALUA by Heling
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For me, it would depend a lot on his movement and what his offspring are like. Arab foals or warmblood foals, I would like to see what he passes on to his get. I have seen many stallions (of various breeds) that are lovely, put together well, move well, and have average or inconsistent offspring.
I agree with Karim that we can use select refining stallions from within the breed, but we should not overlook exceptional Arab or TB stallions to expand the gene pool.
Heather
See photo attached of 2 year old Arab/Trak filly (Arab dam, Trak sire....)
I do realize that this is Arab on bottom and not on top, but she is a good example of what you can get. I will be thrilled if my Aul Magic foal turns out as lovely  BTW, the filly isn't mine
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« Last Edit: December 11, 2002, 01:02:02 AM by Sovereign Farm »
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Canterup
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I LOVE Trakehners!
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Thanks to those of you that responded! I do understand that you DON'T need an Arabian for refinement; but if you bred to an Arabian, wouldn't that be the reason you did that? I was just wondering if it would be worth it to go through all the time and $$ to prepare an Arabian stallion for presentation to the ATA and possibly get him approved and then have no Trakehner mares breeding to him. That was really the point of the original question. This year at the Texas inspection a Trakehner/Arabian stallion was approved, TF Peron's Brilliance. The ATA said he would be a valuable refinement stallion and was pleased at the results of the cross. I will be interested to check his breeding stats at the end of the year and see how many Trakehner mares he bred! Thanks again for your post in trying to help make a decision on my part.
BTW Bruboj, Ditto on on the "nice stallion" comment.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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I will be interested to check his breeding stats at the end of the year and see how many Trakehner mares he bred!
Well that is an idea, but unfortunately it is not a very reliable indicator of the market for Arabian or part-Arabian stallions in the ATA. Breeding involves so many more details other than whether ATA mare owners will breed to an Arab. That stallion's bloodlines, both the Trak (Peron!) side and the Arab side, may influence his desirability in a given year or over-all. Issue like how he was promoted, how and by whom and under whom he was shown/competed, what his fee was, when he became available for breeding with respect to the season (ie, how many mare owners had already made their decisions or paid booking fees elsewhere), and so forth all would impact his stats, especially first-year stats.
I think in deciding to present an Arabian stallion you should do more market research, unless you are not so economically motivated and just want to seek approval for grins. If you ARE economically motivated, take the advice of the stallion owners on this forum and elsewhere when they tell you it is not a money-making proposition, especially in the early seasons.
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Karim
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Questions Canterup:
1)Are you presenting your Arabian Stallion just for the Trakehner market?
2)Is he already registered & breeding arabian or toher breeds mares?
One of the TOP TRAKEHNER STALLIONS we have in this country is Enrico Caruso (sire of Kostolany, Trocadero, Kovington, etc...). Bear in mind that the highest number of mares that he covered in ONE YEAR was only around 30! (as opposed to his son Kostolany covering 300 in one year in Europe, and grandson Gribaldi,over 800 year-to-date) An Arabian Stallion's chances of covering so many Trakehner mares may be slim, as our own stallions are struggling to capture a piece of the market.
My opinion for whatever's worth, present him, only if this is going to be a side-business for him, if that makes sense. How have his foals been doing by the way?
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Canterup
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I LOVE Trakehners!
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Karim:
I do not own the stallion, I brought all this up for a friend of mine trying to make the decision. No, he will not be primarily for the Trakehner market. He will still breed Arabians and Saddlebreds. He was presented to the AWS this year and they accpeted him. He is one of the three Arabian stallions they have selected. I guess in reality, the Trakehner would be kind of a side business.
They will be doing some test breedings this year to a select few leased Warmblood mares and see how that goes. They are also going to breed his Dam to a Warmblood stallion. I totally understand the breeding numbers of U.S. stallions compared to the German stallions. Appears to me that Germany has a wider mare base??
His first foal crop was of riding age this year. It appears from all his offspring, he passes a nice elegant and well put on neck, good topline, better hind, and conformationally correct legs. The #1 trait he passes is a very willing and easy temperament. His foals are doing well and becoming Champions in the Dressage Sport Horse In-hand. A 4 year old daughter was started this year, went to her first show and did Intro and was sold at that show to a 10 year old girl. The filly is in full training, but the girl is showing her and having a blast!
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Jeanne
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If you are looking for an honest answer....
There are currently several approved Arab stallions available to the Trak breeders in this country, and none of them are being used for more than one or two mares. (The same applies to the approved TB stallions)
Unless this stallion is really "something", ie, doing Grand Prix Dressage, I wouldn't really expect to get any breedings that would justify the effort and expense necessary to get the approval.
JMHO
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Well, from my point of view, you can't really compare approved Arabian stallions to the approved TBs. Though both "hotbloods," they contribute completely different characteristics in their offspring.
I think (and am sure someone will whack me if I am wrong) that the Arabian blood has traditionally been used in smaller doses in the Trakehner. I think the old "ideal" standard was 25% TB and 12.5% Arab, which you do not get in any first generation cross.
While the Arab parent contributes nobility, stamina, and a close-coupled frame--all of which are very important--it often decreases size. Arabs in the US who have been bred to be "halter barbies" do not have servicable conformation. The movement and upright posture under tension displayed by many Arabs is not what is sought-after in the warmblood market. I am talking about general perceptions and not about individuals, or individuals who have been approved. Don't get me wrong, I have an Arab-Trakehner and owned her Arab mother, and love them both dearly. My filly illustrates the "decrease size" comment: by a 16.3 hh stallion known for throwing size, she is 14.1+ at 3+ years and may well turn out to be the world's only Kaspareit pony!
On specifics, the Arab stallions who are approved of which I am aware are too small for my mares, in light of the size of horse I want to produce. I think Aul Magic has been marketed pretty diligently to the Trak folks, but don't know if Al-Marah Quebec is even offered at stud (the scuttlebutt at the beginning was that he was only to be offered in the year of his approval).
Personally I would be far more likely to use a TB stallion to breed to if there was one available with type, conformation, movement, and other qualities I wanted. Some of my mares could use a good dose of TB. I think that the Trakehner will find jumping talent coming from TB lines as well. I have even encouraged owners of TB stallions I like to present them to the ATA.
Specifically I like Cloned Steel very much, but have heard his semen does not ship (this may be wrong, and if it is, someone clear it up). The other approved TB stallions are not the type I am looking for.
This is why I have not contributed to the breeding statistics of any of the pilot program stallions. I don't think it tells too much about whether one in particularly will be successful in the Trakehner breeding arena.
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Mary D
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I would use an Arab stallion on the right mare - but I think the real value of the Pilot Program will turn out to be based on the use and success of TB and Arab mares to Trak boys, and not the other way around. And size CAN be an issue, but the smaller horses of the Arab/Trak cross can be ideal for smaller/young riders who would like a 'real horse' in a size that they can handle. However, not all the Arab crosses are small. My Arab/Trak gelding looks to heading towards a mature hight of 16.2, which is comparable to a purebred Trak.
I am toying with putting him in the IAHA Sporthorse competitions this coming show season. He did very well against the warmbloods in the USDF series last season, so I'm curious to see what the Arab crowd will think of him.
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Navar
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Logically, if you want to preserve size, it is much more advantageous to use an Arab stallion on a Trakehner mare and not the other way around. You usually, not always, get the height of the dam. So if you breed a 14.3 hand Arab mare to a 17 hand Trakehner stallion, you are not going to get alot of improvement size-wise, despite the size of the sire.
I think the approved Arab stallions will have alot to offer the bigger, heavier mares in improvement in athleticism and attractiveness.
I have Arabs and Trakehners and have had several inquiries about Arab crosses with real size. Even though my stallion has not been offered for approval with the ATA he is a very big mover and loves to jump. I will probably cross him on one or two of my Trakehner mares as I think I will get extremely athletic foals with size for endurance and eventing.
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TT
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Geez, guys, never say never--the darn cookie problem just got ME and I have to post as a guest...sure hope the software people get this fixed soon. I feel your pain. (now who said that?  )
Anyway, I agree with Navar and would prefer to "put the blood on the top." I think the mare contributes a lot to size, and would not have bred my tiny Arab mare except to a stallion who was known for throwing size. Again, never say never!
I think opening the registry gates to well-chosen hot blood stallions is the best plan and will lead to more consistency in the breed than bringing in an assortment of Arab and TB mares.
However, as I said earlier, there aren't any approved in the US that I am particularly interested in. And nothing against the qualities of the Arabs, but my mares are all 15.3 or less--one refines, one makes big babies, and another makes what you put in. I don't want to roll the dice with any of them going to a small stallion, because I am breeding for the market and 16.1-16.2 is the finished size I am targeting.
If people can market their Arab crosses, more power to you
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suzette b
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Well, I have to agree. Let me say first that I happen to like Arab crosses. My first "real" horse was an anglo-arab gelding that was just fabulous in every respect. So, I have an appreciation for them. And that horse is the reason that I was attracted to the Trak breed over all other WB groups.
Having said that, am I interested in breeding to an Arab stallion? Not unless he is really special, and very a-typical of the type of arabs that I have seen lately. It is SO hard to preserve the qualities that make a good dressage horse in that first generation cross... It is a big investment, and I wouldn't want that first cross for myself.
I DO like to have a bit of arab blood in the background, though. I like a "light" horse with some pizzazz. That is why I am attracted to the Trakehener Horse.
I think I would be interested in the third generation cross (1/16th) the most. Regain the size, the attitude, and the style of movement that I (as a rider) prefer, but still have the extra "spark" and lightness.
Ok, you ask, how do you get to the third generation without doing the first generation cross? Good question. I hope some breeder is willing to do that first two crosses so that I get to ride the third!
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suzette b
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 oops. I can't multiply without a calculator anymore... Senior moment... Third generation would be 1/8th rather than 1/16th... Thanks for pointing it out to me Sharon!
My point is that the Arab blood is just SO very strong that the first generation is "too much" Arab for my liking, and that it takes several generations of careful selection to retain the arab features that are desired, but put back in those Trak features that disappeared in that first generation cross.
I would prefer to use Shagya blood rather than Arab blood, as Shagya will 'blend in' faster. I would be happy with the 1/4 (second generation) Shagya cross.
But, I believe that we only have one Shagya stallion that was accepted into the ATA (is he even still standing to Trak mares? Has anyone used him?). I understand that several Shagya mares have been accepted into the Pilot program, and I am very curious to see what they produce.
Anybody have one of those?
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Christina
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The Arabian blood is so important and is part of what makes this breed distinct. If our mare was larger and of a large frame, I would certainly love to breed her to an Arabian stallion, though some of the best stallion owners are not having the stallions approved for Trakehner breeding because it is costly, time consuming and not exactly profitable since so many mare owners are leary of breeding to Arabians. Let's not forget how we read and hear the lauds of the likes of Condus and Ramzes, Arab influence there. Much of the movement of our Trakehners is beholden to the Arabian, many of whom have such natural God-given motion that it takes your breath away. In the history of Trakehnen, someone was brave enough to take a risk, and I believe it has paid off in giving our breed such grace.
Many Arabian stallions do produce much larger than themselves, and are still prepotent at passing on the desired traits of movement, refinement and great length of neck. We do have an upcoming stallion out of an Approved Arabian mare that we are very pleased with.
I do feel the slight worry about the height issue, though, hey, we are all getting older, who really needs 17hh?
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Holekamp
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I LOVE Trakehners!
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"The Arabian blood is so important and is part of what makes this breed distinct. "
No truer words were ever written. I think that a good deal of what folks like to call Trakehner type is really arab influence on a breed that was otherwise all domestic farm horse and English thoroughbred. Those who have access to some of the more obscure books of Trakehnerdom might want to find some head pix of the 19th century stallion Fluegel, who was held up by the really old-timers as the epitome of Trakehner type and often produced the same in his descendants. I was surprised recently to discover that the great 1920's model mare Palmenbluete is one of his descendants, albeit about a great, great, great granddaughter.
Those who have been reading this thread noticed that I attribute great things to the two most important 20th century Arabian improvement sires, both from the Polish stud, Janov. That is Adamas ox and Fetysz ox. Their descendants are often noted to have good Trakehner type, and boy are there ever a lot of their descendants!
However, I might take issue with your enthusiasm for Ramzes/Condus as "arabian" sires of dominance in our breed. No question about their influence, and not just on Trakehners, but to me this line is Shagya, and that is such a special arabian sub-set that it really is a separate breed. We could argue that one back and forth, but I just keep finding more and more of that Shagya blood to end up almost "everywhere" in looking at the pedigrees of top horses and mares in our breed. That means Burnus, and Gazal too. It is just amazing how powerful a little dab of Shagya can be, and how often it turns up in those Trakehner performance horses who succeed in "real" horsesport. Maybe our predecessors in Trakehner breeding were just incredibly smart, or lucky, to have these three lines of Shagya blood to use, but either way, we are the beneficiaries and should thank them.
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Bruboj
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I love Trakehners!
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I wanted to clarify that Shagya Arabians are actually a different breed altogether. They are not a purebred Arabian. Yes, there are many different bloodlines of purebred Arabians - Polish, Egyptian, Spanish, Russian, etc. All of these bloodlines are pretty popular in the US just depending on any one breeders preference. Many are a combination of two or more of these bloodlines and are simply referred to as "domestic", while there are still many breeders who specialize in one strain - Polish, Egyptian, Russian, etc.
I have owned, shown, and bred Arabians for years. I'm actually not very familiar with Shagya Arabians, but I do know that they are not registerable as purebred Arabians. I found a website (http://www.shagya.net/breed.htm) that describes Shagya's as "a cross of native Hungarian mares with stallions of pure Desert Arabian blood. "
Hope this helps clear up some of the confusion.
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Canterup
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It appears "we" have gone off subject of the original post I started. Can we get back to that and stop any name calling or start a new thread on Shagya's?? Thanks
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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I didn't think this thread went too far afield of your first question. If you want only answers of whether owners of Trakehner mares will breed to an Arab stallion, as opposed to discussion of the who's, hows, and whys, why not do a poll instead of a discussion thread?
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Canterup
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Yes, I know. I did not see the "poll" button until after I started the thread, my fault. I was mainly interested in the original question, breeding Trakehner mares to an Arabian stallion. I wanted to know if it was worth it to take an Arabian stallion to approvals next year. Right now, I am thinking no. But, you never know. Thanks to all that have reponded!
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