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Topic: Stallion Help! (Read 4312 times)
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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Posts: 935
TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Last I knew, Willy Arts at the DG Bar Ranch in CA had Gribaldi semen and also Partout.
You might want to attach a picture of your mare for people to see before giving breeding advice.
From what I have seen of your mare's line, you may need to shorten the back as well as improve on the topline. To make some of the more modern movement with closer coupling, I would suggest one of the Graditz sons, perhaps Tzigane. You also might want to take a look at Impressionist, who has a lovely neck and a lot of action. Our Impressionist-Graditz filly is a showstopper but I haven't seen that many of his kids, so I can't say how reliably they turn out.
Heling has a great progeny record in Germany based on the scores of his daughters, reportedly producing great movement. I would also take a look at him.
In any case, I would definitely try to see some kids of any stallion you are considering from mares similar to yours or of the same lines. And again, you might want to post a picture and/or elaborate on your wish list!
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Karim
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There are plenty of good stallions here on the American continent, but if you are considering frozen semen, you may want to look into Enrico Caruso's son "Kostolany", Gribaldi's & Tolstoi, Silvermoom, Showmaster etc sire...) who has produced 8 approved sons so far, and there is a good chance of him getting the Elite Stallion status soon. He has produced jumpers & dressage prospects. He is stationed at "Gestuet-Haemelschenburg", and they do have some other wonderful stallions standing at stud (e.g., Showmaster {by Kostolany-Ibikus}, Summertime {by Michelangelo-Arogno}, Exclusiv {by Starway-Zauberklang}, Alter Fritz {by Chardonnay-Kokoshka}, just to name a few). And they are a pleasure to deal with. I have purchsed a couple of horses from them. The late Dr. Klimke's Grand Prix Russian Trakehner Stallion Biotop's frozen semen should also be available in the U.S. for this upcoming breeding season. Good luck & have fun choosing a stallion for your mare :-)
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Jen
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I just wanted to pass on a word of caution about the Partout semen. I've heard from 2 sources that there may be some quality problems with his frozen semen.
I think Kostolany is wondergul! I didn't know his semen was available in the US! Who is the US agent?
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Karim
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You can try contacting "Bernhard Langels" at (bernhard.langels@t-online.de ) or visit them at (www.gestuet-haemelschenburg.de). He can give you the right answers. I am very happy with my Kostolany-Ibikus mare (she is out of their elite mare Kleopatra II), and I am planning on breeding her to Schwadroneur for this coming season, and my Kostolany grand daughter by "Manhattan" (half brother to Latimer) out their "Sacre Noir" mare. It was interesting to notice that a very good percentage of the horses presented at Neumuenster for either grading or auction had "Kostolany" on their 2nd or 3rd generation. Good luck & let me know if you need more info on contacting them.
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Karim
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I should have more info on Biotop soon, as we are organizing the shipment of his frozen semen. I must tell you from all the stallions that I saw in Germany during the grading, I liked him the most. I may be biased owning a few fillies by him! He was not at Neumuenster. I went to see him at where he stands. Email me privately for more info on him (wakeupla@yahoo.com)
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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Reading through your "wish" list, it sounds as if you need more quality TB traits in your mare (that regarding her bloodlines could sure some TB too).
I personally love Biotop too, problem is, he doesn't always produce what he looks like himself. His best kids have definitly been out of TB/Arab based mares so far, as with many Russian stallions, they tend to produce rather big, if not coarse, than they look themselves. There are exceptions, of course. But the 2002 Grand Champion mare in NMS is a good example. She was by Biotop, Shakira, out of an excellent Königspark xx-Marsuk ox dam. And still ,she was 3, hitting 17 h, not at all refined, rather big face and very big framed body. What really blew me away was her movement, she really had the best trot of the day there, extream suspension and activity.
Biotop is a great mover, and again, is not dominant on passing that on (as probably no stallion is).
It would help a lot to know what your mare looks like, what her frame is, her type, her foundation. You are currently looking at the "heavier" genes in Trak breeding (Russian, Kostolany), but since you mentioned Inschallah, I'd like to also make you aware of the two full brothers Key West and K2, who are stationed in Germany. Both are by Stradivari, a bay son of the French AA Upan la Jarthe, out of Otto Langels' elite mare Schwalbenburg by Ibikus. This is also the dam of the stallion Schwadroneur that Karim mentioned in his post, as well as the Grand Prix winner Shomaster and the East German state stud sire Sans Souci. Stradivari was an advanced level jumper, but is also trained through PSG dressage and really was kind of "forgotton" as he lives in a small, family operated breeding farm in South Germany. Key West's and K2's dam is the premium mare Kateja by Inschallah AA out of the elite mare Kalinka by Mahagoni, the former National Champion mare and multiple show winner. Kalinka was one of the breed's highest scoring mares ever, a very substancial bay, tall, pretty, wonderful, Mahagoni-based movement. You know Mahagoni through many excellent sons, including Peron. Mahagoni is definitly the breed's most consitent dressage producer. So both K2 and Key West bring in highest quality TB and AA blood and combine two of the breed's most outstanding mares (Schwalbenburg and Kalinka) in their first generations. To top it all, you get the dressage sires Ibikus and Mahagoni close by.
Key West is a very tall, bautiful grey stallion, who is currently shown as a show jumper, but who definitly could be an upper level dressage mpount at any tim. He is owned by Burkhard Wahler (www.klosterhof-medingen.de). K2, the 2001 champion stallion in NMS, lives at the biggest Oldenburg farm in Germany, the Sprehe stud. He had over 200 mares in his first breeding season last year, mainly Oldenburg mares. His website is www.gestuet-sprehe.de. Both are, of course, rather young, so it's hard to say what you will get in the long run, but Key West's first foals have been winning many shows and he is high on my list for next year.
With the Schiwago influence in your mare, I'd say you can definitly add some TB and probably need to, since you want to improve topline, neck set and hock action.
In any case, your mare is a maiden mare and I would not advise you to use frozen semen on your first try. It can go well, but it also might not. I'd definitly prefer fresh cooled for the first try, especially on older mares.
There are several outstanding Trakehner dressage producers in the US and Canada. You might want to check into the Halali-Marduc-Anduc line for that. Excellent representatives of that line are the elite stallion Herzzauber by Marduc (who produced a great number of outstanding dressage horses in Germany before he left), Jean Brinkmann's Hailo by Anduc, who in turn sired Impressionist, whom Ingrid mentioned, then, on this forum, you can get in touch with Renee and Happy Hour, who is also very young and his first foals are only out since last year, but he might be worth a look, being sired by the former National Riding Horse Champion (all breeds), Induc.
Also, in the US you have the stunning Russian Trakehner Oskar, who is all legs and movement! From the way he moves, he reminds me a lot of Biotop, with excellent shoulder freedom and natural talent for piaffe and passage. He might be interesting to look at.
It's a pity Sherry Tourino's Pyatt Charly is gone, he would have been most interesting for a Laiken-mare and would have contributed some TB through Nequen xx and Kemal xx. If you still want to go the frozen way, maybe you can get in touch with her. His sire Charly Chaplin is one of our most outstanding and consistent Grand Prix dressage horses plus he produced excellent kids. Charly Chaplin is available via freozen, if I'm not mistaken, but we've had several bad experiences with his fresh semen already, so I don't know about his frozen. He certainly is a stunning horse!
There are many more I could mention, but have to get back to work ;-)
So if you come across anything you want to know more about, let us know.
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Karim
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Maren,
What can you tell us about Pernambuco? Is he available for breeding? Have you seen anyhting by him?
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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Pernambuco, yes.
When he was in NMS, I wanted him approved so badly 'cause I thought his breeding was really excellent (he is the last Ibikus son out of Pasodoble by Mahagoni).
He was still very much a baby back then, but matured nicely and certainly needed his time.
He is a very handsome boy, dark bay, good mover, a little on the lighter side, but that's more my kind of horse anyway.
I had the chance to ride a few of his get, they are very sensitive (excellent for dressage) and most also jumped surprisingly well. All had wonderful faces, and a nice attitude. I noticed that some of them have rather "open angles" in the hocks and could show more suspension and bending in the hocks when moving, but every horse has a dam, so I can't say that's typical Pernambuco.
There have been a number of highely ranked daughters at the central inspections. I don't think he gets huge numbers of breedings, so it's really hard to generalize his achievemets. I'd prefer to wait until the first have to prove themselves in competition. So far, I liked what I rode!
Erhard would have more ideas I'm sure.
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katamount
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Hello again everyone!
My mare is of rectangular build, although no mention of a long back was made during her inspection. Main points of improvement conformationally was the neck set - definately needs to be higher. She does have good substance of bone, but is not "big bodied". She has a very refined face, pretty if I may so so. (From the pictures I've seen of Laiken head -on she's the spitting image of him - she is gray as well). She's almost 16.2, but yes I agree, I would ideally like something a bit leggier. (Yes, I know, I should post a picture!)
Thanks for the experience with Kostolany etc. throwing large bodies. I, too like the more refined frames and could see the TB helping. Besides that, I am rather small and don't have a tremendous amount of leg to get around a "wide body".
I have looked at Hailo - and like him very much. I'm wondering how he will help with adding increased knee action. Kat is a beautiful mover, but more of the flat moving type.
If I took the suggestion and added TB lines, what about Incantare? Has Mahagoni through Enrico Caruso as well as Coktail via Martini. Again, a young stallion, so who knows?
I visited the websites mentioned for info. on Key West/K2. Maren has mentioned them quite a bit - I noticed on another posting. Key West is quite a handsome fellow. (P.S. I am partial to the greys). Crazy question...do they speak English and how would I go about getting a video and how is semen available in the US?
This is all quite fun and exciting...I just wish I had more knowledge & experience. So again, I'm looking to all of you!
Thanks so much!
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« Last Edit: December 03, 2002, 06:52:50 PM by katamount »
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Robin
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Karim
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Katamount,
I liked Liken, and the other two stallions (Enrico Caruso & Unkenruf) that Tylord owns/ed. Liken was a good producer of hunter/jumpers, and you are lucky to own one his gets.
If you do not mind greys (you may not have much of a choice, since your mare is grey, and grey is a dominant color) as Maren said Herzzauber (Marduc-Radom) is the only German verband awarded Elite Status Stallion in North America. He has 2 approved sons in Germany, Adamello & Guzzi, and one on this continent, Zulu MV. He moves beautifully. The other grey REFINER you may want to look into, with a great record of producing winners in the dressage arenas, and a good jumper himself, and I beleive two years in a row his get won the ATA futurity awards (He may have shared it one year with one of Tim's) is LEONIDAS (by Condus out of the Elite mare Libella V by Siegbert). You can look up their performance records on the ATA site. I am sure their owners will gladly send you videos if you contact them.
I personally like the Mahogoni line. I have an Inspekteur (By Mahogoni-Karwendelstein) mare at Tylord's, waiting to be bred to Enrico Caruso, regardless of all the pros & cons on his damline. The bottom line is that he is a great horse & has been producing better than himself in his offsprings.
Not all german stallions overseas have gone through the legal process for their semen to be USDA or Canadian DA approved. Meaning that there are many good stallions that their semen cannot be shipped to this great nation of ours, since the process is difficult & expensive. Maren & Erhard can advise you whose frozen semen is USDA approved.
Another young Premium Stallion that I really like is SUMMERTIME (by Michelangelo out Sarogna by Arogno). His first crop of foals has been impressive. He was approved in 2000. He is a dark bay & a little over 16.3 hh. He is also half brother to Guy Laroche. Michelangelo is one-half thoroughbred, and Sarogna (Arogno daughter & Ibikus grand daughter) is one-quarter. But if you are worried about toplines, I'd be careful about doing an outcross with a full TB. Again Maren & Erhard are more knowledgeable about these issues. Have fun shopping :-)
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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You mentioned you need more knee action?
In that case, Hailo might not be the best option. While he produces a lot of suspension and impulsion, his knee is lacking elevation. He just is extreamly trainable and has a perfect working attitude and I think that's why his kids are so successful and also so loved.
Leonidas also has a rather flat front. And I noticed that in a couple of his offspring, who, on the other hand, are very beautiful and also very tall with good bone and also nice toplines.
I mentioned TBs together with toplines because over here in Europe, TBs looks very different to the US. Most come closer to being riding horses than you know from the average sprinter type stallion in the US, so we use a lot TB to improve toplines, as many of them really throw excellent necks and very nice slope of the topline.
The home stud of Key West is Klosterhof Medingen, they are fluent in English and ship a number of their stallions to the US, I am almost certain they have Key West USDA approved semen. I recommend to send an email and ask. They are also very open about frozen semen quality. They always were upfront explaining that Caprimond semen for exmaple is below average in motility.
Herzzauber is definitly worth a good look, if you are heading for dressage and also want to stay fresh cooled. You will find the link to his homepage at the ATA site, and his owner Eileen Poole, is just a totally great lady to deal with, VERY nice! Additionally, his semen quality seems to be excellent. I have a close friend who bred to Herzzauber this year and due to FedEx reasons, the semen was in the mail for 3 days, delayed at customs and arrived way too late. They inseminated this 13 year old maiden mare with a history of uterus infections and --she was in foal!
Incantare: I LOVE that stallion. His temper is outstanding, he's beautiful and moves very well, plus he really can jump too. His bloodlines are a good match and there's a lot of TB in his background. I actually inquired about frozen semen as I wanted to try on one of my mares, (even though he's not approved in Germany). I think he is one of the highest quality EC sons around. The sad fact is that he doesn't like the phantom and Jean took him out of the fresh shipping last breeding season as it was so hard for them to collect him. She has a couple of foals of him from his first year and they are stunning!! Saw them about a month ago. You might want to check back with her if she has solved his little "issue" ;-)
Another nicely moving EC son is the newly approved Kovington, out of a Schwalbenherbst-dam. He's not overly pretty, but if your mare is, that might work out well. Kovington is black, not the tallest, but looks like he can produce tall. He has an excellent self-carriage, a long show record in dressage, and tons of impulsion and suppleness. Very good knee too! But 2003 will be his first breeding season, so I can't tell you anyting about his offspring.
And I can only second Karim on Summertime. What a horse!! I'm very happy to have a mare in foal to him for 2003. His foals were just totally outstanding, I think not a single one scored less than 8 on trot, with several 9s among them. He is very tall, substancial, and his bloodlines combine the "who is who" of late Trakehner dressage heros. He's my favourite Michelangelo son, and I bred a mare to Michelangelo too, so that shows how fond I am about these horses. You can see Summertime at www.gestuet-haemelschenburg.de
And I have to say that even though our of range on the first look, the Habicht son Windfall is an exellent size/topline/bone producer. Like all Habicht offspring, he is multi-talented. And he has wonderful knee action. A very supple and ridable horse, tall and black. Have a mare bred to him too. His dam is a German TB mare, one of three elite mares in the Trakehner Verband that are pure bred TB. Windfall won at all levels in Germany in show jumping, eventing AND dressage and was the only horse so far in the history, that qualified for both the National Championships in eventing AND dressage in the same year. Owner Tim Holekamp is on this forum (sometimes ;-), if you want to check Windfall out, drop him a line. You can see more of him at www.eventrider.com.
OK, done for the day, sorry for my endless stories......
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sherry
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I love Trakehners!
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Hey guys-thought you might like to know--it's not a for sure thing--but it looks like we'll have a Sixtus son in the US in January--ready for breeding in 2003--he's a dandy--I'm in love again when I thought it wasn't possible
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Sovereign Farm
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KALUA by Heling
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Congrats! My fingers are crossed for you. So... let's here more about this "maybe" fellow! Mare line? Pictures?
Heather
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Karim
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I wish breeding was as easy as these conversations we are having. If it was, all we had to do was to breed a good mare to a good stallion & end up with a good foal, but that is not how it works, especially with a maden mare. You are throwing all these genes into the pot. Only God knows what you are going to end up with. Differences of opinion is very healthy, as long as we agree to disagree without taking it personally & without getting personal. And I happen to disagree on Leonidas. He has won more ATA awards than any horse that I know, just read the ATA magazine or look up his performance records on the his website on the ATA. He does have plenty of knee action. Most of the gets that I have seen of him have been above average as they are winning most of the breed shows here in LA & Ventura Counties. Hilda has done a wonderful job with him, and just for the records I am not abeneficiary to him getting any credit.
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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I agree about Leonidas peformance record, absolutly. But I saw about 15 different videos of him ridden, and he just doesn't have the knee action I'm used to in Germany, sorry. He is showing nice telant for passage, especially when Hinnmann was touching him front to elevate his knees he responded immediately. And I love his breeding, I'm a big Condus fan.
But breed shows I don't care about so much, the truth lies under saddle and we'll have to wait for the first L-babies to be there.
Especially in the Trakehner breed we've had too many show winners that lost under saddle, and that costed a lot of reputation, at least here in Germany.
Leonidas is very important for the ATA and also for carrying on the Condus line, as this is a very small line, but highly proven. And since Ramzes AA (Condus's sire) is the foundation stallion of the mentioned R-line in Oldenburg (Rubinstein, Rembrandt, Rosenkavalier, etc), we certainly need more of that in the breed.
However, you will find much more knee action in the Habicht-line than I've seen in many others.
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Kim H.
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Hi Kat,
Judy Yancey's suggestion of the Rubinstein influence is a good one, and you can get that via Trakehners. Since Ramzes AA is the origin of the famous "R" line in Westfalia (Radetzky, Remus-Romadour, Rosenkavalier-Rubinstein). Ramzes AA is the sire of Condus.
There are several actively breeding Trakehner stallions representing the Ramzes line (via Condus):
Leonidas (Condus son)
Tarim (Condus son)
Tzigane (Condus grandson; dam is full-sister to the German-approved Condus sons Tarim & Tempelritter)
Those immediately come to mind; any overlooked are purely the result of a tired mind tonight. For more information on Ramzes AA and Condus, visit www.twingates.com. The pedigree section has an interactive element with photos, performance history and notable progeny of both stallions.
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Erhard
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I love Trakehners!
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Hi,you all,already a bit late to enter that discussion,thank you for your patience.In most feelings and comments I agree with Maren's words.Herzzauber was always one of my favourites and he seems to be outstanding in breeding to mares with lots of TB-genes.(for example his son Guzzi).He is perfect combination between Marduc and the very strong and proven motherline of Herbstgold,what means that he does not show at all the sometimes little bit weakness in back and hind leg activity of his sire but the strong and perfect conformation and power from behind of his dam's family,being stamped by Mahagoni and Erzsand too.With TB-influenced mares he passes on a lot of proudness,uphill
movements and athletic horses overall.
I don't know Incantare himself,but love his bloodline-should pass on type,athletic foals and active moving horses.I disagree a little bit with your comments on Leonidas,Maren,what does all free and powerful movements with free knee action worth,if the horses are not gentle and easy enough to do their job under the saddle up to higher levels.And therefore Leonidas is very good example for not only a high proven competition horse himself but seems to pass that on and don't forget besides his sire Condus his dam by Siegbert,a stallion who has been nearly forgotten here in our breed,but should have improved the whole breed,if more chances.
I saw such a lot of horses on the westphalian grading with breathtaking movements in the front but no motor from behind.And the active motor is that what every rider needs desperately.And not every son out of the Donnerhall-,Rubinstein -and Florestan-lines convinced me at all.
Well done,Maren,to use Summertime.Nearly every foal I saw,made me happy.Never before I saw a young sire's first offspring which convinced me so much:type,good size and bone,good legs,very proud and uphill and most times so powerful and active from behind - and free in the shoulder.Play of his genes:Everywhere you could notice Michelangelo,Arogno and Ibikus.
I disagree with your comments on Biotop:If you realize that he only left 12 foals in his first year,you have to admire that all five daughters have got premium award,among them the outstanding Shakira and the reservechampion Phalanx and Kagari was winner of her performance test and Dios qualified for the national riding horse championship.That's quite a lot and I mention it for encouraging breeders to use him,because of our narrow,narrow gene pool.We need new genes and a lot of breeders don't dare the risk with a TB-sire,what is a big shame.Biotop is perhaps not that consolidated bred but we have to find out with which sorts of mares and genes he passes on his best.We already nearly lost Almox prints' influence - he is very old now - and I would be happy about every nice broodmare by him in our breed.There is too much prejudice with the russian genes.
And I agree totally with your words about Habicht:We needed years to know with which mares he passed on the best,but he really improved powerful,uphill movements with free activities in the front and athletic attitudes.But again he was not a horse for everybody,a lion in the stable,a wonderful competion horse in the right,experienced hands.Where would our breed be without him!
If everything works with Sherry's new boy - fingers crossed,Sherry -:he is one of those young Trakehner stallions,who has got it,the perfect way of moving combined with the most easy and gentle temperament and all the attitudes for the real work under the saddle.
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sherry
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I love Trakehners!
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From a breeding standpoint, the size of the mare decides the size of the foal
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Karim
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Kat,
As far as Gribaldi goes, I was having the same debate with myself. Kostolany has produced Gribaldi. Given the opprotunities Gribaldi had or has (breeding to over 400 mares per year), he has produced some wonderful get, but has not produced another Gribaldi yet! Kostolany has!!! He has also produced Showmaster (half brother ot Shwadroneur out of the Elite daughter of Ibikus, Schwalbenburg) among 6 other approved stallions, and some number of state & verband premium mares!!!
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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Good point, Karim!
And let me correct a little, Gribaldi had 700 mares in 2001 and already 859 by June 2002!!! That's insane, if you ask me.
Regarding the motoro and freedom in shoulders: I am not debating the need of a motor, I pay much more attention tot he haunches than toeh front (I'm an eventer!!). I was only commenting on "flat" because it was excplicitly asked for more knee action by the original poster. I personally don't get blinded by front arm plays when the machine is not engaged from behind. And I think, and I'm sure Erhard will agree, that our newst champion stallion Elfengeist has one of the most impressive "machines" I have every seen in my life.
I alsoo agree on the need of Russian lines. And am willing to go that route next breeding season, only we pick jumpers, so Waitaki will be the one. I always admired Biotop and will never forget the electric atmosphere in the Westfalenhallen in Dortmund at the World Cup when Klimke rode Biotop to victory in the freestyle two years in a row, to Russian classical music, and when he was done, NOT A SINGLE person was sitting anymore. This combination (Biotop/Klimke), was the most exciting we had in dressage. Too bad it all ended to soon...
And on Condus... I'm gald to own a mare that traces back to him. That should say it all...
cheers!
PS: nice to see you're back, Erhard!
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Jeanne
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Ya know, everybody is tossing around all these German stallions that are simply not available at an affordable cost to the American breeders. They aren't. And while it makes for some interesting conversations, it just isn't answering the question.
Let's get real, and let's also get a bit of AMERICAN PRIDE in some of our AMERICAN stallions!
Why doesn't anybody take notice of what she is looking for in a stallion and make a SERIOUS suggestion?
I mean, she wants lofty suspension (not available from Leonidas!), she needs a great work ethic (not easy to get in the Condus line anyway), and a strong top line in a dressage horse. She has a lot of size and long backs in her bloodlines.
Why hasn't anybody suggested the stallion Kreshendo? I just read right here that this stallion has been awarded big honors for his performance in the dressage arena, and I know for a fact that he has the very best work ethic, and is refined, with a very good topline, and GORGEOUS movement!
What did I miss?
He has nice, fresh bloodlines, out of an imported mare and a lot of proven performance horses in his pedigree to back it up.
He sounds like a serious prospect for this mare.
JMHO, take it for what it is worth.
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