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Topic: As "Breeding Season 2006" is coming to a close ... (Read 6692 times)
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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Nice pictures, Eclypse. But at the risk (heck, it is a certainty, not a risk...) of derailing the thread further, I have some questions and observations.
First, these horses do not display a consistent phenotype. Some look markedly like Saddlebreds (esp the dark one in the middle picture of the first post--light-framed, typical ASB conf characteristics), while others look more drafty (like the bottom one). This is not unusual for any kind of F1 cross...to have some inconsistency. But where the real inconsistencies pop up is in the F2, where you get pure throwbacks running to either contributing breed. Makes it tough to develop any kind of meaningful breed standard.
I know someone who has bred a few Georgian Grandes. She had a nice, sweet draft mare and somehow wound up entitled to breed to someone's saddlebred stallion, so figured what the heck. Then she discovered there was actually a registry, and at the price of the registrations, figured what the heck. Now having bred several more of these, she laughs as she mentions that they sell better than her purebreds of other breeds.
Looking at the GG web site, at the breeding objective ("The purpose of blending of the Saddlebred with the draft or Friesian is to produce offspring that are the perfect blend, having the best of both "worlds", resulting in the heavier boned, "old fashioned" or Baroque saddlebred type"), I have to wonder, why not just selectively breed old style Saddlebreds? The Saddlebred-ier of the horses in the pictures you posted don't have any more substance than horses like Wing Commander, so why make this mix instead of reclaiming a desireable aspect of the ASB that years of misdirected breeding in the ASB has almost extinguished?
How come you need a new breed, and start up the whole blending pot again with trial and error and certainly a fair degree of failures, when the horse that represents the goal already exists?
It seems to me like saying you like the substance of old style Golden Retrievers, so instead of finding those type that are left and breeding them, you decide to try to get the substance by breeding a new-style Golden to, say, a Mastiff? Or you like an old-style QH, so instead of going foundation, you start breeding TB type QHs to Belgians to get the mass.
Beyond that, draft horses are, by design and evolution of their breeds, pullers, with pushing hind ends as opposed to carrying hind ends. While I enjoy the look of the Clydesdale's movement, and they are the most "carrying" of the drafts in my opinion, they are still draft horses. They are physiologically set up to pull. This has to do with structure and, for want of a better way to put it, when in their stride their hooves leave the ground. Hilda Gurney had a nice handout at her seminars on sport horse breeding that illustrated this. Anyway, the point is, function follows form and the draft horse (that is a proper draft horse) or its progeny that resemble it are not generally set up physically to exhibit good sport horse movement.
So, this is not breeding type to type, and the outcome of this cross is by nature not going to have a high degree of consistency. Some of these may be carriers and others pushers, depending on what side of their family trees they favor.
Friesians, which are not true draft animals as much as carriage animals (instead of pulling incredibly heavy loads, they basically carry the weight of the shafts), have more uprightness in their movement and usually a little more carrying ability than, say, a Shire. But many of these suffer from an inverted topline and a lack of throughness. In addition, they generally have different angles and proportions than those of the ASB.
For the record, I don't have anything against draft crosses. Some of my favorite horses have been draft crosses. And I like my cockapoo--a mix that fanciers have been lobbying for recognition of for many years--as well, but I don't choose to breed those, either.
On the cynical side, recognizing that an awful lot of draft cross foals are produced every year as byproducts of the PMU industry, is this essentially a registration outlet for these foals? If you were a PMU rancher, and the stallion you run with your herd of PMU generating draft mares happens to be a Saddlebred, wouldn't your little foals be GGs and members of this elite new breed? (Granted, I doubt many PMU farms are investing in pure Friesian mares, so the Friesian-influenced GGs are beyond the scope of this speculation, at least at the F1 level).
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EclypseSporthorses
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Why does anyone pick a certain breed? Or car? Or favorite flavor of ice cream? A favorite color? Discipline? Job? Jeans? Etc. I think it is obvious that everyone has different tastes. I have seen more consistancy in Georgian Grandes than in most TB's, so we'll have to disagree on that. I think they are great, and the reason the breed is gaining momentum is that they are great horses, athletic & kind. The best of both worlds is true, and they are extremely well tempered/quiet. I have had my 3 year old out on trails, he is exotic, people want to know what he is & if I have more like him for sale, they have never seen such a quiet 3 year old. I really don't agree with the debate over drafts as pullers only, I owned the dam of our GG, and she was a wonder to ride, smooth, responsive, powerful, and more narrow & leggier than most drafts. What I don't understand is the type of bad reception the cross seems to be getting. I bet many of the horses photos that were posted here from the GG site could have passed as anything other than draft crosses.
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
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fuzzy
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I don't think anyone here is dissing crossbreeding as whole. Most of us have done it to one degree or another. It has it's place, on a smallish and reasonable scale with a lot of thought put into that you might get - not, "gee, I wonder what this cross would look like" (which I'm NOT accusing you of - but it does happen) . It's just that some of us really don't see the point in re-inventing the wheel. The GG seems to me to be a re-invention of the Morgan (only bigger). Not that there's anything wrong with bringing back the idea of fancy-moving multi-purpose horses, but we already have the Moragan and the Saddlebred, which (as Ingrid very accurately pointed out) DO still exist in the heavy, old style here and there. Sure, the crosses that went well are promoting the designer breeding of crossbreds, but I know for a fact there are also a lot of ooopses who are best promoted under a Purina label.
Also, Eclipse, you did point out that your draft mare was a bit of a deviation from her breed. Perhaps in hitching her for pulling heavy loads you would find that the traits that made it possible for her to make a good riding horse would have prevented her doing well at what most of her breed is good at . . . . . Not a bad thing . . . just like getting the odd QH bred for cutting who by some fluke or other has the build and knack for jumping. I'm just saying you might not have had the same success with your GG had you used something more like a Suffolk Punch in build. But then, you would have had the sense to not expect an elegant riding/carriage horse from the Suffolk . . . .
Anyhow, I better get off this thing before I tread on too many toes. It's past my bed-time. Peace, out. 
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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I have seen more consistancy in Georgian Grandes than in most TB's, so we'll have to disagree on that.
Do you see so much consistency amongst the examples you posted here? I don't.
And while one can certainly find examples of TB's that look markedly different--there are examples of any breed of horse that deviate from breed standard in many directions--this is a selection of photos that you hand-picked to illustrate your point.
I owned the dam of our GG, and she was a wonder to ride, smooth, responsive, powerful, and more narrow & leggier than most drafts.
She probably was a lovely mare, but by your own description not like "most drafts." In other words, sounds like she was not a textbook example of a draft breed standard...sounds like she was closer in type (smooth, more narrow, leggier) to the ASB than most drafts. And thus, she was quite possibly a better candidate for that kind of cross than "most drafts."
Sort of the way you can't really say Arab blood is great crossed into the Trakehner. YES, it can be, the RIGHT Arab blood carried by the RIGHT Arab horses. But our inspectors are evaluating Arabs by sporthorse type. This is not necessarily the same as the breeding goal for Arabians at the time; horses that win in Arab halter classes might not be the right kind, because of the trends and fashions within that breed.
So yes, some draft horses are--and produce--good riding horses. But not all drafts are candidates for that, and in fact, the better candidates might not be shining examples of their breed in terms of what wins on conformation, etc.
And, if you follow that reasoning and observation, then what we really have is a practice of crossing two animals of different breeds, where at least one of them is not a good representative of their own breed. How can you get a cross that represents "the best" of two breeds when you didn't start with horses that exemplified their breeds?
Between these two examples--draft to ASB and Arab to TK--are a few critical differences, the greatest of which with the Arab-TK cross there are inspections to try to ensure good quality is produced and good crosses considered.
I bet many of the horses photos that were posted here from the GG site could have passed as anything other than draft crosses.
But they ARE draft crosses. They SHOULD look like draft crosses, if their parents and other ancestors looked like good examples of drafts.
Again, I am not anti-draft or anti-crossbreeding. I am anti-indiscriminate breeding (whether we are talking about purebreds or crossbreds). Our world doesn't need a greater horse population just for the heck of having more horses. As breeders it behooves us financially, and I feel we have an ethical obligation, to try to minimize the breeding "mistakes." And registries or breeding programs that are hoped to reinvent the wheel, as fuzzy put it--the existing, fully functioning wheel--are bound to result in more mistakes being made along the path to reaching that objective.
That said, if you have individual mares and stallions that nick really well, make great babies that have ready homes, and they happen to be of different breeds, so what. You've got a proven cross that you discovered with a controlled experiment, and more power to you. But the rally of "Got a draft horse? Breed it to a Saddlebred (and get more money than you would for a purebred draft foal)," or worse "Got a X that doesn't look like an X? Breed it to a Y," or any other disparate crossings, is just going to promote ill-considered crosses, breeding of animals that perhaps should not be bred at all (because they are not good examples of what they are), and essentially a baby boom. Some of the boomers might be good ones, but a lot of them will be Franken-horses.
It isn't the well-considered crosses that are the problem. It is the glut of bad crosses that result from these kinds of trends.
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 12:11:12 AM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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EclypseSporthorses
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No worry Fuzzy, you are exactly right about the mare, she was a slight deviation, though realize too, that there are (like most breeds), variations of type within the breeds.  So I can see if you are gazing over the pasture gait at your friend's low rider 4 x 4 draft, that you would think 
I do have a real problem with the thought that people think that breeds of horses can only have been developed hundred of years ago. But, everyone has a right to their own opinion. I just had a well known dressage competitor contact me today asking if I knew of anyone selling a 15.2 hh jumper that her niece could compete on, and the family ride too....I gave her a Trakehner breeders name & number, and I tried to mention a few successful Arabians that had already won at regional levels--- and she thought that Arabs & possibly Trakehners would just be too hot for a youth to ride. I did mention that it is best to take a horse on a horse by horse basis, and set aside breed preconceptions, though, some people just get an idea of a breed in their head, and won't let it go and give the horse merit on it's quailities. Go figure. 
Ingrid, They (GG's) are blending well and consistantly- many other breeds do not cross well with drafts, though the ASB crosses so well because it has specifically been breed for the quailies that need refined on a draft horse. The draft is intended to bring (not only, though obviously) temperament, size & the quaility of being an easy keeper/honest worker. With the cross to the very specificaly bred ASB's, it is a wonderful F1 cross, everytime. I didn't really hand pick the photos, I only went to Thunder Valley's site and found the ASB x Friesan horses there, and the ones readily available on the GG site....I didn't have time to go through and hand select the ones to show the BB, I just posted the first ones available, hardly hand picked.
I don't ness. think this is all off topic,
we only got on this subject because of the comment about cross breeding Friesans making the breed "go down the toliet".
I don't see the Gyspy thing going very far, and I don't care for Fresians at all as they are, by nature CARRIAGE horses, NOT riding horses (you don't want to see a Fresian/QH cross - you'll yak your guts out). I like driving, but I like a multi-purpose horse who can be nice and "through" in his under-saddle work.
To my knowledge, the daughter registry of the Dutch stud book is still pulling papers on horses who are used to cross, and who canot meet various other standards, and still doing strict approvals, but at least one other registry has sprung up which allows about anything. And then there are a few "breeders" who have purchased registered stock to start and then breed willy-nilly. They are now into the first couple generations of GARBAGE Fresians and crosses. I totally get the sport ponies, though - not only for improving small stock for youth and small adults, but as nice drivers for an ageing population of horsemen whose abilities are becoming limited, but who still have high standards for the animals they are seen with.
I only jumped in there to counter that point of view. I have done so, take it or leave it....I simply think that bashing cross breeding is hypicritical since all breeds started as someone's dream, they all started somewhere, just because you happen to be alive when a breed is being born, doesn't mean that that breed has less merit, wouldn't you all have loved to go back to see the first few generations of the Trakehner? I am sure there were folks back then, too, disagreeing over cross breeding the Schwaike, and many probably wondered why re invent the wheel back then too... Proably thought if you wanted a TB or a Schwaike, or to improve them, to keep it within the breed.... Okay, I will end my defense of crossbreeding with 2 more pix of what I think is a great breed in the making, and the draft is bringing something that is missing from many *modern* warmbloods, calmness & being an easy keeper. My GG is larger than and eats less than any other horse I have ever owned, that has to be a plus, besides being beautiful & athletic, an easy keeper....that is like getting a sweet husband that is a handy man and a millionaire hotty **Back to our regularly scheduled discussion***  .
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 12:26:17 AM by EclypseSporthorses »
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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With the cross to the very specificaly bred ASB's, it is a wonderful F1 cross, everytime.
Wow, now there is a tall bill to fill...every time? What are the bloodlines for the specific Saddlebred breeding that produces these results? Are they the same regardless of whether you cross to a Clydesdale vs a Shire vs a Friesian? Does it matter whether the ASB blood is on the top or the bottom?
Is the state of the art on this cross already so highly developed? Do you know if there are any plans to approve breeding stock, so that selections might be limited to individuals and lines of ASB (and draft, if those individuals or lines are proven to be a significant part of achieving the consistently wonderful results)?
Or did I misunderstand your post completely...Did you mean ASBs in general, because they have been specifically bred for whatever it is they have been bred, can be relied upon to produce these results? It strikes me that there is a high degree of variation within the ASB, different breeding goals and so on.
My understanding from talking with a few people involved with GGs is that the goal is to propagate these as an actual breed, meaning F2s, F3s, and so on. What's the track record for those crosses? Are they satisfying the expectations set by the F1s?
I didn't really hand pick the photos, I only went to Thunder Valley's site and found the ASB x Friesan horses there, and the ones readily available on the GG site....I didn't have time to go through and hand select the ones to show the BB, I just posted the first ones available, hardly hand picked.
OK, I have to put on the Boss Mare hat for a moment. Did you, or can you, secure permission to repost those pictures here? They would be subject to copyright, so please follow up with me on this.
I am sure there were folks back then, too, disagreeing over cross breeding the Schwaike, and many probably wondered why re invent the wheel back then too... Proably thought if you wanted a TB or a Schwaike, or to improve them, to keep it within the breed....
Actually, I don't think THAT wheel existed, back then. Horses of different types were not all that readily available in a given region in the 17th and 18th centuries. The Schwaike was a small, native animal that needed SOMETHING to happen with it to create a useful horse. The Trakehner was born of necessity, not someone's "dream."
And surely some of the precursors to the TK were horrendous. Heck, look at the Olympic contenders from the early 20th century and THEY look horrendous...indicating just how far, and how long, it has taken for the sport horse to evolve to what it is today.
So, the reinvention of the wheel shall be my segue back to the thread, and my earlier comment. If you can't find a worthwhile point of differentiation for your stallion (or whatever you are breeding), you probably don't need to be standing him, because you aren't offering anything new to the horse world.
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 12:42:39 AM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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EclypseSporthorses
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Or the fact that the scope of many WB's is very hard for a lot of A/O's to ride.  That maybe one of the reasons many people thought of breeding draft crosses, to gain temperament.
but there are an awful lot of fad-chasers out there. Because people have new ideas, and reinvent the wheel (I like my truck tires better than the original caveman stone wheel) doesn't mean they are fad chasers. I (niavely) thought I was the first one to think of this cross, boy was I happily surprised to see the many people making the same connection...it is always nice to find people with the same vision. 
I don't see the Gyspy thing going very far, and I don't care for Fresians at all as they are, by nature CARRIAGE horses, NOT riding horses (you don't want to see a Fresian/QH cross - you'll yak your guts out). I like driving, but I like a multi-purpose horse who can be nice and "through" in his under-saddle work. It is so ironic that the ONLY Trakehners in WEG are proudly pulling a carriage. I seem to remember many Trakehners pulling many wagons in the Trek, or am I wrong here? TI has a great photo on the Trakehners History page.
They are now into the first couple generations of GARBAGE Fresians and crosses. I totally get the sport ponies, though - not only for improving small stock for youth and small adults, but as nice drivers for an ageing population of horsemen whose abilities are becoming limited, but who still have high standards for the animals they are seen with.
This is what started me off on the defense of the cross breeding, it is propiganda that shouldn't go undefended. I haven't seen generations of garbage, I have seen many of these horses claiming HOY awards, and I think that is only the beginning. They are, especially for a young, small breed, making a dent in the HOY awards, and being asked to Devon, I think they are far from 'garbage'.
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
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EclypseSporthorses
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Actually, I don't think THAT wheel existed, back then. Horses of different types were not all that readily available in a given region in the 17th and 18th centuries. The Schwaike was a small, native animal that needed SOMETHING to happen with it to create a useful horse.
You are saying that only one kind of horse exhisted during the 17th & 18th centuries? And the ones that were looked horrendous? I have seen various forms of art from those eras that have quite good looking horses in them from that time period and there seemed to be a multitude of various types of horses. To find a variety of examples, all you have to do is use an image search on google for horse + 17th century or horse + 18th century, you will find several mediums, including drawing, painting, wood carvings and sculptures of horses that are far from horrendous.
The Trakehner was born of necessity, not someone's "dream." So when one has a necessity, they do not *dream* / *plan* the outcome??
And surely some of the precursors to the TK were horrendous. Heck, look at the Olympic contenders from the early 20th century and THEY look horrendous...indicating just how far, and how long, it has taken for the sport horse to evolve to what it is today.
So, the reinvention of the wheel shall be my segue back to the thread, and my earlier comment. If you can't find a worthwhile point of differentiation for your stallion (or whatever you are breeding), you probably don't need to be standing him, because you aren't offering anything new to the horse world.
I am not sure what you mean by *your stallion*? Do you mean the one I own?
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 11:47:14 AM by EclypseSporthorses »
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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Actually, I don't think THAT wheel existed, back then. Horses of different types were not all that readily available in a given region in the 17th and 18th centuries. The Schwaike was a small, native animal that needed SOMETHING to happen with it to create a useful horse.
You are saying that only one kind of horse exhisted during the 17th & 18th centuries?
No. Note "readily available within a given region."
The Trakehner was born of necessity, not someone's "dream." So when one has a necessity, they do not *dream* / *plan* the outcome??
Plan yes, dream no. The pragmatic development of a type of horse suitable of meeting the necessities--the demands--of life in those times, from the stock that was available, was not a "dream."
So, the reinvention of the wheel shall be my segue back to the thread, and my earlier comment. If you can't find a worthwhile point of differentiation for your stallion (or whatever you are breeding), you probably don't need to be standing him, because you aren't offering anything new to the horse world.
I am not sure what you mean by *your stallion*? Do you mean the one I own?
No.
Regardless of propriety, "you" is often used in discussion to refer to the more formal "one." I am guilty of that misuse of the word.
Or the fact that the scope of many WB's is very hard for a lot of A/O's to ride. That maybe one of the reasons many people thought of breeding draft crosses, to gain temperament.
I don't think that is what fuzzy meant by "scope."
Because people have new ideas, and reinvent the wheel (I like my truck tires better than the original caveman stone wheel) doesn't mean they are fad chasers.
What is the "new idea" behind a horse, the breeding goal of which (from the registry's web site) is to produce "the heavier boned, 'old fashioned' or Baroque saddlebred type"? It's an old idea.
How is the GG a "truck tire" and the existing horse that the GG aspires to become is a "caveman stone wheel"?
I don't see the Gyspy thing going very far, and I don't care for Fresians at all as they are, by nature CARRIAGE horses, NOT riding horses (you don't want to see a Fresian/QH cross - you'll yak your guts out). I like driving, but I like a multi-purpose horse who can be nice and "through" in his under-saddle work. It is so ironic that the ONLY Trakehners in WEG are proudly pulling a carriage. I seem to remember many Trakehners pulling many wagons in the Trek, or am I wrong here? TI has a great photo on the Trakehners History page.
There's a difference between draft horses, carriage horses, and saddle horses. As there is a difference between fine harness, light harness, carriage driving, draft harness, and the driving competition at the WEG. And a difference in the style, type, and physiological structure of the horses that excel in each of those areas.
Trakehners can pull a carriage, wagon, buggy, road cart, etc. They would be hard pressed to pull a dray as draft horses have been bred to do. In the Trek, they pulled wagons. They had to. If the people had an assortment of Trakehners and draft horses available, I suspect that the drafts would have fared better in pulling those wagons in those conditions and over that terrain. Trakehners were capable but not the draft specialists that draft horses are, by definition. This isn't Trakehner blasphemy; I would bet the people would have preferred to have other animals to do the pulling so they could ride their Trakehners out of East Prussia.
A breed of riding horse, individuals of which can pull a vehicle, is not the same as a carriage horse breed OR a draft horse breed. These types are bred and developed to be specialists, and they are significantly different in terms of bone structure and movement. A figure skater is not built or developed the same way as a line-backer. While the figure skater CAN play football, he isn't likely to get drafted into the pros.
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 04:51:10 PM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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EclypseSporthorses
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Plan yes, dream no. The pragmatic development of a type of horse suitable of meeting the necessities--the demands--of life in those times, from the stock that was available, was not a "dream." This is so splitting hairs, you don't think that plans & dreams go hand in hand like dreaming of owning a home and then planning to buy one???
What is the "new idea" behind a horse, the breeding goal of which (from the registry's web site) is to produce "the heavier boned, 'old fashioned' or Baroque saddlebred type"? It's an old idea. The ASB utilized to cross with draft horses is the *new* idea. As far as I could find, it hasn't been done in recent history. I'd love to read about it if you find out otherwise. And, as I look back at pretty much every warmblood breed, their history is discribed as crossing utility or heavier horses with light horses. So, it should not be so unsettling to modern warmblood breeders that Americans (young country) are developing their *own* breed in a similar fashion, maybe it isn't such a novel idea, just a renaissance come to light.
While the figure skater CAN play football, he isn't likely to get drafted into the pros.
Well, like I said before, these horses must not be the 'garbage' outcrosses they are being painted to be, and must more likely be the good idea that their breeders know them to be, because they are a young, developing breed, and like it or not, they are doing well in competition, so you can go on about drafts not being able to do sport, though they *are* doing it, and winning, not only at shows, though HOY's in dressage. So.....they can't do it?? They are doing it, and doing it well. I really do not get the pessimism about drafts as riding horses, they are not threatening our breed, their owners are happy with them, & love them, they are doing well in competition...so why call them garbage? I can recall several threads on this and other boards with people having their feathers ruffled because someone was bashing Trakehners or Arabs...*you* don't like it when someone bashes the breed you are interested in, what makes it okay for you to call someone else's horse of choice garbage? Take a breath and think about it for a minute, I wouldn't even be talking about draft crosses had they not been bashed, *we* don't like folks bashing our beloved Trakehners or Arabs or TB's, so why would anyone go bashing someone else's breed, or outcross? We can all have a desire to be involved in, own more than one breed of horse, can't we? I mean, how many different types of dogs/cats do you own? I have a Rescued Shepard, and two powder puff chinese cresteds, how different could they be? I still love them both, I love my paint mare, my Trakehners and am just as proud of my Georgian Grande gelding! This is not really about drafts or cart vs weight pullers or Friesans or ASB's, it is about stop trashing other people's choice of breeds. It is akin to talking politics or religion, breed bashing should be off limits- jmho
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 03:26:00 PM by EclypseSporthorses »
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
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*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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Joy
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My observation: Christina, you're taking this much too personally. Nobody was attacking anything, from what I could see.
GG's are, like NSH's, not a breed, but a cross-breed, and if those who breed and/or own them like what they've got, fantastic! I think the original discussion was about Fresian crosses not being Fresians, and losing type and quality along the way. Regardless of whether someone likes the crosses, they're not Fresians. Inspections are important to maintain breed standards. Neither are QH/Trakehner crosses, though nice, maintaining breed standards. Stating facts is not attacking those who like the results of the crosses. And you've got to admit, Christina, that there are "registries" for everything. There's even a grade horse registry.
As Ingrid pointed out, to develop a breed, you must look at the F2 and F3. Are they true to type? Trakehers are, for the most part, though occasionally there are throwbacks. My first Trakehner, an Erzand mare, was 15.3 hh and looked very Arab--and yet was very much a Trakehner. I adored her, and if she hadn't died at age 5 (from a "routine" vaccination), I'd have her still. So the question is, are GG owners really trying to develop a breed, or do they just love the cross-breed? Nothing wrong with that! But creating an F1 cross is quite a different goal than creating a whole new breed, especially in the long term.
WRT "splitting hairs", well, I guess I agree that it might look like splitting hairs, but I see a lot of difference between planning something and going after one's dream. For example, I may plan to get a car, and I go look at a few and finally buy one. I've fulfilled my plan. My DREAM, however, may be to have a Masarati. I got functional, I didn't get my dream. Later on maybe I'll have more money and I'll get the Masarati, and then I'll fulfil my dream.
To bring it closer to home: I have a very nice filly out of my 1/2 Arab mare. She'll replace my mare when she's older, and is the result of a plan to have a filly out of my favorite mae. She's a nice mover, wonderful personality, and I think will be very easy, and she'll be great for me. However, my DREAM is to breed a spectacular Anglo-Trakehner or Trakehner mare who can do anything, and be able to ride her well. Buckskin coloring would be nice too. That's my current dream, and it probably won't come to pass, because if I look at it rationally, I don't have the drive to ride the horse I dream about. At this stage of the game, my plan is more important than my dream.
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EclypseSporthorses
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Go The Distance
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My observation: Christina, you're taking this much too personally. Nobody was attacking anything, from what I could see.
GG's are, like NSH's, not a breed-
Joy, just because you post it on a BB doesn't make it so. Because *you* say it is not a breed, it isn't??? So, I guess because Dressage at Devon, Ohio State Fair, United States Dressage Federation and US Equestrian consider it a breed, means nothing? Wow. And you really think that no one is attacking anything by calling it garbage and you are not being personal by saying it is not a breed!?? even when obviously it is recognized as a breed...wow, okay...
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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Joy
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I love Trakehners!
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[and you are not being personal by saying it is not a breed!?? Christina, how is this PERSONAL to you? Who has attacked anyone, and you in particular?
Recognizing a crossbred as a breed is a political decision. It has nothing to do with breeding true. If you want to take that personally, that's certainly your decision, but Christina, my opinions have nothing to do with you! I'm stunned that you are so on the defensive!
Tell me, Christina, are grade horses a breed because they have a registry? If they lobbied the various shows to have them included for breed awards, would that make them a breed? Really, when it comes to breed shows, what is a breed? It's a marketing decision for the Ohio State Fair, et al, to "recognize" GG's and NHS's as breeds. As Sally pointed out, Dutch horses are not a "breed", but a type, and people love Dutch horses.
'Nuff said. This is just too bizarre.
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« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 03:56:58 PM by Joy »
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TrueColours
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Breeders of unique coloured TB's and Sport Horses!
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How did we get here from where this thread started???
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Joy
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I love Trakehners!
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It did take a few twists and turns along the way, didn't it?
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Well, so far, ONLY about half the posts are off the track... I would split it but I don't know where to make the cuts (or what on earth to title the new thread...maybe we should have a contest for that!)
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