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Topic: As "Breeding Season 2006" is coming to a close ... (Read 6692 times)
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TrueColours
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Breeders of unique coloured TB's and Sport Horses!
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some interesting reflections and observations from what I have seen ...
There have been some VERY fancy, very well bred and very nicely promoted WB stallions in the US and Canada that have entered their 2nd year with not ONE SINGLE BOOKING to their credits, and their owners, who sunk a great deal of money, effort and dreams into them, are now on the verge of losing their farms and everything they hoped to attain through them and I cannot understand why ...
Some gorgeous new faces on the scene - as WB stallions and funnily enough (to me, anyhow!) some fancy imported pony stallions as well that will bear watching in the next few years as they start to hit the show ring. Is the pony breeding market opening up now? Is there an increased demand for nice pony stallions out there? I am seeing more and more threads from people looking for specific "types" and "colours" of pony stallions so to me, it does appear to be on the upswing in this area for sure ...
Is it enough to buy or produce a nice young stallion that is then approved in various registries, with good bloodlines, movement and conformation and "eye appeal", or do you need to look much much longer term with much deeper pockets, and budget money for show expenses for him to get him out, get him seen by the "right" people on the right circuits, to attract nice mares to him? And - do you also need to "put your money where your mouth is" and get several nice mares of your own bred to him in the early years, to show potential clients what nice foals he is capable of putting on the ground, and then further promote THOSE babies on the line class circuits up here and down in the States, to get THEM seen by the RIGHT clients as well that you are specifically targetting to breed to your stallion???
King Ridge's recent decision to hire an industry professional as a Marketing Manager was, in my opinion, a sound and smart business decision move. It is no longer enough (IMO anyhow!) to JUST have a nice stallion that is competing and doing well out there, with desired bloodlines. To effectively PACKAGE that stallion, you then need someone to MARKET and PROMOTE him and unless the Stallion Owner has the time and the ability and the desire to do so, they can be left sitting at home with a very very nice stallion that no one is breeding to ...
I think that Stallion Management and Promotion has now turned the corner into Big Business and unless the Stallion Owners embrace that change, accept it and work within those parameters, they are going to be like the people I mentioned in the very beginning with a very nice stallion that SHOULD be getting bookings and paying his way and generating decent revenues for them that is sitting there 24 months later, with not one single booking to his name ...
Or - is the bigger problem that we simply have TOO many nice stallions for the available mare base and available Mare Owners looking to breed, and no matter HOW good a job you do promoting and marketing your stallion, the slice of the pie you can expect to get is dwindling and shrinking with each passing breeding season???
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mathildevincent
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Wow Donna! I love to read your critique posts like this  Here are my opinions on it... I need to specify that I'm far from being a pro nor the most experienced breeder out there, but I still have noticed a few things 
I would think that one of the centerpieces of the situation is that there are some stallions offered at stud and that should not be!! So of course, this makes all the stats look very bad. In my opinion, a stallion should be exceptional. Super is not enough. Although it is true that in breeding history some very "average" stallions have been very prepotent and important to their breeds, but still. In our new world context with the opening of all frontiers with the technological improvements of frozen semen and shipped semen, one has to have an exceptional stallion to attract its share of mares. Who can blame the mare owners to want to reach for the best when they can for, often, almost the same price?
Stallion promotion has therefore become a big business. Not only does your stallion have to be exceptional, but it also needs to be seen in the right places by the right people and score big at inspections. If, your stallion didn't finish champion at his inspection, then the owner will absolutely need to get his own great mares to prove the qualities as a sire of the stallion.
I also think, on inspections, that most registries are waayyy too generous. If I'm not misinformed, the KWPN for instance, will not grant a permanent breeding license to a stallion until it reaches the age of 13 or so!! They will evaluate it as a three year-old, then evaluate its performances in competitions, then evaluate his foals before it will grant it a permanent breeding license. In the long run, it assures you that only the best are allowed to breed and it reduces your stallion base. While with other registries, every cute stallion with somewhat of an approval can breed : that makes WAYYY too many stallions on the market and obviously, nobody can get its share of the pie as you said. It's mathematical.
I think you need both factors : good stallion promotion and management and an exceptional stallion. I have seen some stallions with monstruous marketing machines pushing them forward but the stallion himself was not exceptional (in my honest opinion!) : I will not breed to this stallion regardless of how well known he is. It sure is a very hard market to get through and it does need deep pockets whether it is to purchase the colt, to market it or to find mares for him...
Kudos to all successful stallion owners, I'm having a hard time getting around to purchasing a very good foundation broodmare, let alone standing a stallion!!
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Mathilde Vincent
Equus Magnifica
Québec (Canada)
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Jennifer
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I went to a seminar a couple of years ago and learned that on the average, a stallion in the US gets bred to 5 or 6 mares a year. This includes the rare individual with 50 or 60 bookings. I imagine this has not changed recently.
I think its possible that there are some stallions around that may be approved, but maybe shouldn't be. In fact, and this is just my opinion, I'm really appalled with some of them. (But, then I don't have to ever use them or any of their offspring . I believe the Dutch process is the only one that will revoke a stallion's approval status if there are consistent problems with the offspring. Certainly a stallion with successful offspring will "advertize" and promote the potential quality of future offspring. Its difficult to develop this with new stallions who have no or few offspring.
So, the new guys on the block need to get more babies on the ground that are out there at least being shown on the line. I wonder how some of the owners of "the new guys" expect to do this when they charge stud fees in the range of stallions with proven offspring. I find this amazing. Maybe they've paid a bundle for these stallions and are trying to recoup this cost, and that's why they come up with high stud fees. But, maybe they should consider the possiblity that they may get 1 or 2 breedings at, say, $1,800 (plus shipping and handling which may be an additional $200 or $250 and assuming the booking fee is included) but they may get more breeding at some "special introductory rate" of $1,000. And they should probably keep this special rate until they get offspring undersaddle. They may get more or similar money at the lower rate, but they may get more foals.
Well, I guess that's part of marketing. You've got to put a price on your commodity that will attract buyers.
And, I think stallion owners really need to focus on customer service while they are making a name for their stallions and his offspring. This shouldn't be forgotten! Personally, I've experienced these types of frustrations while trying to get a mare in foal, not all of these situations occurred with the same stallion owner: trying to get a mare bred to a stallion that was showing and I didn't know about it (no one else knew about it either), not being able to reach the stallion owner, not getting paperwork from the stallion owner, etc., and I'm sure you may have had similar issues. And if the stallion owner has never been a stallion owner, then there's a good possibility that additional realiability issues will develop regarding the whole breeding process.
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« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 11:15:37 AM by Jennifer »
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Joy
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Great thread. I do think that the registries are too lenient. I'd like to see inspection of foals to rate the quality the stallion is putting on the ground, and I'd like to see a version of the Dutch process in the ATA. The stallion performance requirement is minimal; otoh, I'd like to see more emphasis on foal quality, and I like to see how well a stallion performs himself.
WRT young stallions, I do think newly approved stallions need to have a lower stud fee. If I have a choice between paying the same amount on a stud fee for proven or new stallions, I'll spend it on a proven performer and a proven sire, all other things being equal. And between two stallions with the same stud fee,of which one is a proven performer with no foals on the ground, and the other is a proven sire with performers on the ground, the proof is in the foal pudding. I'll go with the foal producer. However, show me a superb young stallion and give me an incentive to try him, like a lower stud fee, and I'll give him serious consideration.
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Suzette
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There are several questions here.
1) Are there too many stallions? Well, if there was a limit to the number that are available to the breeding public - ie, only Approved Stallions could be used, and no frozen was allowed from overseas, then probably there would not be too many. But... There is NO LIMIT to the number of stallions available to breeders. Whatever anybody's requests are, there are currently a few dozen to pick from in this country today.
2) Are the registries too lenient? Well, the problem is that you really cant tell from looking at 2 yr old colts, just how they will turn out 10 or 15 years later. So, do you "throw out the baby with the bathwater"? , and miss out on the nice one that got away?, or approve a bunch, a let the performance world weed them out? Well, if our performance requirements were tougher like the other registries, and we could use that performance requirement as a "weeding" factor as it was intended to be.
3)Does it take a ton of money to stand a stallion? Abolutely! Do you do it to make money? Heck no. If you can't afford to spend the money and you NEED to have that investment payoff just to pay your bills... You will go broke in a hurry. Stallions are not a paying investment. Don't fall into the trap of believing it will happen. Perhaps it was true 20 years ago, when Warmbloods were a novelty in this country, but not any more. The market has long ago been filled with Warmbloods of all levels, and quality. They are no longer a rarity.
4) Pay out even more money to some "Marketing Agency"? Are you nuts? I guess if you have limitless funds, and want to see just how far you can get the name recognition for your stallion as a "life-goal". But not if you are hiring the agency to improve your profits. I mean, do you have any idea what kind of a marketing budget Iron Springs Farm has? We are talking SIX FIGURES. How many of us have spare cash of six figures to spend on Marketing? Oh, and they still don't make a profit! Iron Springs is a tax writeoff!
I am not saying that nobody makes money standing a stallion, but usually they make the serious profits elsewhere in the operation, such as buying/selling and training.
Is this a new phenomenon? Well, it has been heading that way for the past 20 years. We are on the back end of a fad. Those that got in on the front end of the fad made all the big bucks!!
People who are looking to make the big money are the ones who are searching for the next big fad. What comes after Freisians, the Gypsy Vanners, and now the Sport Ponies? What's next? If we knew, we could jump in on the start and make money! But at this point in the Warmblood breeding market, we have a "mature" industry, and can't expect rake in the money that those who came before us did.
Just what I have seen over the years....
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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TrueColours
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Are breeders doing a disservice by promoting every nice or VERY NICE colt as a "fabulous stallion prospect", thus perpetuating the dream that there is "Gold in Them Thar Hills?!" 
Lets face it - geldings are WORTH more as going show horses, and the market for geldings is far greater, wider and more lucrative than it is for stallions and more people will buy a gelding than will a stallion ...
Could and should the breeders market their young colts more realistically and truthfully as "Fabulous Gelding Prospects" without the negative connotation being there that their stallion isnt producing anything worthy of being stallion material???
And I agree with so much of what is being said here. People buy these sub standard stallions with either unusual colour, or some names in the pedigree that are *hot* and expect because no one else in their region have one, they are going to capitalize and get rich. They dont have the ability and/or the money to promote them themselves so they either dibble dabble at a few shows or leave them in their backyard, and expect that will be enough and 2 or 3 breeding seasons later when they have a whack of substandard foals being produced that they own and cannot sell, and no paying customers WANTING to breed to this stallion reality bites hard, and it bites quick and their hopes and dreams go down the tubes ...
It can be a brutally hard business and since the horses have to continue to be looked after and fed while these breeders slowly but surely sink into oblivion, what was a bad situation yesterday, turns into a drastic situation tomorrow and next week ...
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Jennifer
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I, too, would like to somehow see more inspections of of offspring. Many other warmblood registries have foal inspections as part of the requirement and mare owners do this every year. Personally, I prefer the process of the GOV and hanoverian registries where they don't label a foal that is changing so much at that age with some number score that will follow him the rest of his life. The better foals are given a premium award for oldenburg and site champions ar named for the hanoverian inspection. And there is some discussion about the foals, and about the mares and the stallions who are the parents of the foals. The Han foals are branded at the end of the day.
Because they inspect the foals, there are a lot more inspections and inspection sites. So, if the ATA did this, too, I would think that the number of inspection sites would increase and we wouldn't have quite so far to travel. For some time now the closest ATA inspection to me was a 4 to 5 hour drive. This year there was one about a hour away. But, this is my opinion and I know there are lots of people who think this is burdonsome. These registries also provide for the possibility that a mare or foal might be sick or injured and not able to travel. They can come the following year.
Then, too, another issue for having more ATA inspections is the question of would there be enough inspectors with available time? The ATA inspectors volunteer their time and may have to hire people to take care of business back home. Usually the ATA inspections are on weekends, whereas the GOV and AHS inspections are part of approximately 3-week-long "tours". It may be difficult for the present ATA inspectors to take off that much time.
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Jennifer
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Yes, AHS does not require foal inspections, but at the inspections I've attended, they've inspected maybe 10 to 20 foals as well as mares.
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SteveSamples
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This has been a fascinating and educational thread for me. Thanks.
My only "devil's advocate" comment about stud fees for young stallions is that by breeding to a promising youngster we may be able to get a foal out of him before he does prove himself & is priced out of our range. Of course, that's the gambling aspect of the sport. Gambling is not one of my besetting sins, but I do think that I've got my mare in foal to a young man who we will be hearing more from in the future, and the proven stallion at the farm where he stands is double the stud fee.
Thanks again for a timely & informative thread. From the interest it does look as if the breeders are slowing down & have a little time on their hands to post.
Blessings,
Steve Samples +
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Oakstable
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Many of the AHS inspections are held at the farms owned by stallion owners. It's a lot easier to host an inspection than to trailer out.
I bet the AHS is the largest registry but I cannot think of an AHS inspection in SoCal anymore.
Yet there are several GOV, RPSI and ISR inspections in SoCal.
The Dutch put the emphasis on inspection at the age of three in an attempt to avoid the growth irregularities.
Don't get me wrong, I think inspections are great in an ideal world, but can add MANY hundreds of dollars to your investment in that youngster. (Gas, motel, meals, hiring help, inspection fees, braider, professional handler.)
But if promising stallions are not getting mares, there's no foals to be inspected ... Back to the original conundrum.
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Proud owner of Trakehner mares Lucy and Summer.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Another of those threads of Donna's to make us all think. I have been lurking here for a long time on this and finally had some time to respond. It's LONG, so if you are interested, you might want to get yourself a tasty beverage and hunker down
... that have entered their 2nd year with not ONE SINGLE BOOKING to their credits, and their owners, who sunk a great deal of money, effort and dreams into them, are now on the verge of losing their farms and everything they hoped to attain through them and I cannot understand why ...
That is kind of a red flag right there--"betting the farm" (literally) on being able to get a return in the first few years. For normal small businesses, a startup period of 2-3 years of operating losses before a positive year is pretty typical. For horse businesses, for which even our IRS has lower profit expectations, it is almost certainly a longer process than that on average, if in fact, the business ever reaches a state of profitability.
Is it enough to buy or produce a nice young stallion that is then approved in various registries, with good bloodlines, movement and conformation and "eye appeal", or do you need to look much much longer term with much deeper pockets, and budget money for show expenses for him to get him out, get him seen by the "right" people on the right circuits, to attract nice mares to him? And - do you also need to "put your money where your mouth is" and get several nice mares of your own bred to him in the early years, to show potential clients what nice foals he is capable of putting on the ground, and then further promote THOSE babies on the line class circuits up here and down in the States, to get THEM seen by the RIGHT clients as well that you are specifically targetting to breed to your stallion???
Within our breed, I would have to say that there is more interest and greater value placed on a performance career--specifically within dressage, show jumping, or eventing--than in a record of line-class wins. A stallion really needs to be out doing more than in hand classes. While his kids are young, in hand is the best they can do.
Unlike in years' past, people expect more and more to see a serious performance record on a stallion. Go back about 10 years and even less and people were more interested in seeing performance records on the offspring. It made more sense for a stallion owner to leave the stallion to breeding and show the heck out of some of his homebreds. Take, for example, the case of the stallion Target. He was at stud his whole life and years ago he was for sale, and his owner could point not to a tremendous performance career of his own, but to the record of his children including Larissa. And while the trend is to want a performance record on the stallion, doesn't it make more sense to see what his kids can do? After all, when you make a decision to breed, you aren't going to GET the stallion but one of his kids...
Now all of that said, there is a basic issue of marketing: When you are selling breedings to a stallion, who are your customers, and where will your customers be looking? What results are they interested in seeing? As a mare-owning small breeder, I have to say I would go look at a nearby horse show. But I would certainly not take the time to be a horse-show groupie, traveling to look at line classes.
Granted, many people won't breed to a stallion without seeing him in person. Horse shows, exhibitions, and farm visits obviously are important for that group. I realize, in areas where shows are more frequent and geographically close, or are big deals like Dressage at Devon, many mare owners do go to see a collection of young stock by various stallions, or to see the stallions themselves, often while showing their own young stock in hand. I don't, however, think that is the majority of mare owners.
So having the stallion out and showing on the line just to be seen may be helpful in reaching a few prospective clients. Ditto the kids, just to be seen. In line classes in particular, though, aren't breeders playing hell to get the bloodlines and other info publicized at the show? It seems it is a common complaint that the bloodline and breeder, for example, don't get published in the program. So if it is hard for spectators to make the connection of a nice young line class winner to his sire and breeder, how much value is there in showing there? Given the tremendous expense of showing, it is tough to say how much of this is worthwhile with a goal of getting breedings.
People do put some value in an in-hand record on a stallions' foals, but only to a degree. Each score and placing gives you at least one judge's opinion as to the quality of the young horse on the given day of the show. But once those kids are old enough to be competing, their in-hand records become pretty meaningless as far as proving the stallion.
There are other reasons for showing besides getting bookings, of course. Increasing the value of the stallion, or the individual offspring. Winning some prize money (in some disciplines). The less business-oriented goal of personal satisfaction. And so on.
Or should I say, there HAVE to be other reasons for showing besides attracting mare owners, because the number of breedings you gain won't pay for the showing at an advanced level. Look at our breed star, Windfall. Competing internationally in eventing with outstanding results, thus justifying his standing at the highest fee of any living Trakehner stallion in North America. But the revenue he would generate with 20 or 30 additional breedings wouldn't fill the competition-expense bucket. What must it cost to keep a horse like that, going at that level--his acquisition cost and keep, then vetting, entry fees, plane tickets to hither and yon?
King Ridge's recent decision to hire an industry professional as a Marketing Manager was, in my opinion, a sound and smart business decision move. It is no longer enough (IMO anyhow!) to JUST have a nice stallion that is competing and doing well out there, with desired bloodlines. To effectively PACKAGE that stallion, you then need someone to MARKET and PROMOTE him and unless the Stallion Owner has the time and the ability and the desire to do so, they can be left sitting at home with a very very nice stallion that no one is breeding to ...
With an operation the size of King Ridge, it likely was a very savvy move to hire a Marketing Manager, and sort of create an in-house marketing department. They likely will get better results or the same results more economically than they would or have been by contracting outside agencies and consultants. This is a farm standing, what, 4 stallions? With 30-40 horses on their sales list, a mare herd of 10 maintained for offering embryo transfer, and so on? It probably is more cost-effective to go the in-house route.
...like the people I mentioned in the very beginning with a very nice stallion that SHOULD be getting bookings and paying his way and generating decent revenues for them that is sitting there 24 months later, with not one single booking to his name ...
Well, people in that situation don't need a full time Marketing Manager on the payroll. However, I daresay they need some assistance in developing and implementing a marketing strategy. That ain't no field of dreams your horses are standing in, and just because you breed them doesn't mean people will come. Marketing in all of its varieties and modalities has to be part of the plan. People can--and should--do a lot of their own marketing, but it isn't intuitive to most so they can really benefit by getting a push--or a hand-leading--into the right directions.
Or - is the bigger problem that we simply have TOO many nice stallions for the available mare base and available Mare Owners looking to breed, and no matter HOW good a job you do promoting and marketing your stallion, the slice of the pie you can expect to get is dwindling and shrinking with each passing breeding season???
The portion size of that pie is definitely shrinking! I just gave an interview to the Paint Horse Journal the other day on industry trends, and supply versus demand in stallions as well as sale horses is definitely near one end of the industry pendulum-swing. We have MANY stallions out there, and MANY sale horses. Due to many factors, and very much the economy, we have less mares whose owners want to breed and less new horse owner prospects. Our last horse census, published by the Horse Council last summer, indicated HUGE growth in the horse population and low growth in the population of horse owners. That represents a state of over-production: more horses are standing on each piece of ground, as opposed to finding ready new homes to move to.
We now are starting to see a trend of breeders breeding less. Plus, many of the smaller breeders, who may have been casual players in the breeding game during the heyday of the warmblood craze 10-20 years back, have dropped out. This is not necessarily a bad thing for our industry and our horse-population: it leaves us with more steadfast breeders continuing to produce, and becoming more selective. But it sure makes it tough going for stallion owners at the moment.
As with sale horses, more than ever stallions need to be differentiated. They need a unique selling proposition (something which Donna, being a niche TB breeder for many years, knows well). On many levels, sellers and stallion managers need to focus on educating their prospective clientele as to why their horses are superior choices. Just saying "he is a warmblood" doesn't cut it any more, because there are bushels of those.
And while price has a place in all of this, and I fully agree that newcomers to the stallion arena should be attentive to what the market will bear in terms of stud fees, price cannot be the deciding factor and absolutely cannot be your sole point of competition. Your unique selling proposition cannot be "low priced," because you need revenue to keep the business running.
Reminds me of an old Saturday Night Live skit, parodying the 80's commercials of a certain bank. They featured a person, seated against a dark background, talking about the bank and responding to questions from an off-screen interviewer. But the joke here was, the commercials were for the "First Bank of Change." The premise was they made change..."bring us your $20's, we can give you two $10's. We can even give you four $5's, or a $10, a $5 and five $1's." "But how does your bank operate?" asks the interviewer. "How do you stay profitable?" "Volume. We make it up in Volume."
Stallions standing for free or at nominal fees have their audience, but it certainly isn't the entire population of mare owners. There are tons of free or cheap horses--CANTER rescues, PMU foals, breeder over-stock, etc. Depending on the outcome of the horse-slaughter controversy (which I really don't want to take up in this thread), there will be more or less horses in need of homes. And some people who would otherwise buy a more expensive horse will take those free and cheap horses, and you can't blame them at all. As a corollary, I own rescue/humane society dogs, and that is fine for me because I am not showing them and not breeding them. Like dogs, plenty of horses need a good place.
But people who need quality and credentials to accomplish their goals with their horses, or just WANT those things, are not combing through PMU auctions. And people who are breeding, really knowledgably breeding, are looking beyond price as well. Unfortunately, price is the most noticeable thing about a horse or a stud fee, often the first point of comparison. Though much about horses is an emotional process, it is logical to look at choice A and recognize it has $X price, and look at choice B and $Y price. But the comparison shouldn't stop there. And one of the objectives of marketing well, and what the savvy seller/stallion manager needs to do, is to push that comparison process along to the other differentiating factors.
So what are the differentiating factors that matter? The 100,000 dollar question, with about a 100,000 different answers, including pedigree, conformation, and other features of the stallion, management and record of the stallion, reputation/past dealings of the farm/manager, etc. If, as a stallion owner, you can't find a meaningful point of differentiation for your horse, you probably don't need to be standing him because he isn't contributing anything additional to the horse world.
On with my breeder-hat, as a mare owner, one of the most critical things I look for in a stallion is, How will he cross with my mare? What will be the result of this breeding, what am I likely to get? There are no guarantees, but I know that just about EVERYTHING about a horse is hereditary, including many habits and behavioral quirks. So, I want to see as much of the stallion as I can. Whether in person or on video, I want to see the stallion working. I HAVE to see him moving at liberty, preferably at different stages of his career because riding influences muscle development and liberty movement. A horse can be very skillfully pulled together and perform even a Grand Prix test, but my foal won't hatch with that talented rider on its back. So I need to see the stallion's natural movement, preferably before training and gymnastic work altered it, because that is what he would pass to my foal and that is what I will have to show prospective buyers if I am selling the foal before it is ridden. I want to see material on his parents as well; many features skip a generation, so you always need to look at the grandparents and even further back. And very importantly, I need to see offspring, preferably with their dams. Show records are nice but, for my purposes, are secondary to what I look for and can see. These are the things that give me a clue as to what I am buying for my stud fee. The more consistency I can see in the offspring, the greater the level of trust in breeding to that horse. And if the stallion doesn't stamp, unless you just want to hop on a pedigree bandwagon or performance coattails, what is the point of breeding to that stallion?
Which gets you to the mare question. A stallion needs progeny. Progeny showing good quality, showing that he stamps his kids and how, and from a variety of mares (or at least, from the variety of mare you are interested in attracting to his book). To get those progeny, you need to buy, lease, beg, borrow or steal some good mares to prove the stallion. You don't have to own the foals; if you can breed to nice outside mares, better yet. And you may need to suck it in and approach some mare owners that have good mares that can help prove your stallion. But you need to show offspring, and the sooner the better.
And, I think stallion owners really need to focus on customer service while they are making a name for their stallions and his offspring. This shouldn't be forgotten!
ABSOLUTELY. Customer service is key. Even with the greatest stallion imaginable, who has a good book, great customer service will always enhance his opportunities. Mare owners talk, about their own experiences and second-hand experiences. Without looking for it, in finding stallions for my relatively small mare herd just this season, I ran across several examples of stallions whose reputations are suffering because of their owners/managers' poor customer service or inept breeding management. Breeding is an expensive gamble and no one wants to be treated poorly or have human-created impediments to the odds of a successful breeding. Standing a stallion is a service business. There is little room for stallion managers who act as though they are bending over backward to deliver on their contracted obligations, or are just plain unpleasant. No one wants to deal with a pissant. While the genetic potential you are buying has to be the main point, I personally have favored stallions with owners who were fantastic in customer service. All things being equal, most mare owners would choose to work with pleasant, competent people.
Additionally, the more successful stallions are marketed in a variety of ways - not all of them costing money. For those who have very little left after show expenses, an investment of time to fill out the ATA performance results form (automatically sends results to the web, magazine & newsletter) can go a long way.
Excellent point. There is much more to marketing than advertising, and other marketing methods are all too often overlooked.
Are breeders doing a disservice by promoting every nice or VERY NICE colt as a "fabulous stallion prospect", thus perpetuating the dream that there is "Gold in Them Thar Hills?!"
I don't think it's perpetuating a dream. More often than not, a colt is advertised as an SP to give an indication of quality. The fact of approval also operates that way--plenty approved Trakehner stallions in recent history have been purchased and gelded to become show horses. Yet, since many sellers advertise any horse with the potential to have testicles drop as "stallion prospects," the term has limited meaning anymore.
... and more people will buy a gelding than will a stallion ...
True. The question then becomes, when do you make the decision to geld your stallion prospect and concentrate on selling him down a performance path?
...and expect because no one else in their region have one ...
Regional interest is probably more of an issue in the TB world. The majority of the breeds have moved past requiring live cover and into the 20th century and beyond with breeding technologies, so where on the planet a stallion is situated does not have as much bearing.
Er, back to the original posting re hiring a marketing company. If the SO is going to add the cost into the breeding, and they aren't getting any mares now, they surely will throw good money after bad.
They have to quietly behind the scenes interest mare owners. That requires building a relationship, not hiring a marketing firm.
If you are dealing with people who don't know how to market, including relationship-building which is a chief component of marketing, they may well need the assistance of a marketing firm or consultant.
Add the cost into the breeding? Gee, if they can't sell any breedings without getting some help and learning what they need to do, this is academic.
Now back to my breeder-hat and the ATA practices... I for one have no interest in mandatory foal inspections. Foals vary SO much week to week... I have signed up even a 3YO mare for an inspection before the deadline, and once the inspection rolled around, she was in another growth phase that prevented her from showing her "true quality." I certainly don't want to be required to do that with foals.
I don't want to haul my foals 4 hours, 8 hours, or more (which is the distance to the nearest inspections over the course of the last five years, and that is only when we are lucky enough to have "close" ones). Our country--well, continent--is just not arranged for horse inspections.
Some registries, as noted, swing their inspections satisfactorily in one big tour. How well that works is somewhat registry-dependent. If you are talking about European registries, looking to establish/build a foothold and market for their horses and European association in North America, it makes more sense. Pay your inspectors to make a grand tour, and at least have the benefit of a single overseas roundtrip. For North American registries, or North American affiliates of the European registries (such as the ATA), it doesn't make as much sense. The number of new members and interest that could be generated by having more inspections or a grand tour probably would not outweigh the cost of employing inspectors to take 3 weeks or so out of their lives and burn up their vacation time from their day jobs. So we operate with volunteers on an "as-possible" schedule.
Adding to the problem, we have different breeding seasons in different parts of North America. Depending on where you live, the "grand tour" might be scheduled when you have 6 month old weanlings or 2 month old sucklings. Having to transport a troop of mares along with the foals to get to an inspection site would be a real bugaboo...I only have a two-horse trailer
And in the end, what are we talking about? Will foal scores tell us so much more about how useful a stallion is to breed to? Would the scores tell us that much more than looking at video of the foal or the foal in the flesh? Or do we want to base a decision to pull a stallion's ticket based on what his FOALS (as opposed to mature offspring) look like when they come to inspection? Except in egregious cases -- a stallion consistently throwing one-eyed, two-headed, three-legged foals -- how would foal evaluations give you a reliable basis for doing that?
If we want to look at whether a stallion's licensing should be continued based on progeny--and I don't completely disagree with the concept--why not use the evaluations of his mature kids, when you really know what you have? Problem is, the one-eyer/two-header/three-leggers won't be brought for marks, anyway.
I used to work with a client who bred Friesians, before they became so overly "cool" they are passé, when they actually were just starting to become cool. Hers were registered with FHANA, the affiliate of the Dutch registry, and they had some serious requirements. I don't know if anything has since changed. Anyone who cross-bred a stallion--or a mare--was subject to having the registrations of ALL of their horses revoked. They had mandatory foal inspections, and did base a stallion's licensing on his offspring. The inspectors flew in from Holland and did the "grand tour." A stallion's license could be revoked if an adequate number of foals did not meet minimum marks, or if he was found to be throwing white markings (in an all-black breed; granted, this is something you really could ascertain by looking at a foal). There were other ways a stallion could lose his ticket...one who savaged a mare, for example, was subject to license revocation. It all seemed to work pretty well at the time, for a small, relatively "boutique" breed registry that was still pretty exclusive due to rarity and higher prices.
It might be good to investigate the possibility of provisional licensing, so that stallions can be seen again at maturity. We are approving colts so young--not even having reached 3 years--and warmbloods mature until they are 6 or 7... How can we expect inspectors to have a crystal ball and predict that the mature horse that the promising approved colt will become is still going to evidence breeding stallion quality?
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« Last Edit: August 14, 2006, 05:57:49 AM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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fuzzy
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Ahhh, great thread, and some excellent pionts, all! But it seems to me it's still, like the ethics thread, all boiling down once again to EDUCATION, HORSEMANSHIP, and PEOPLE LOOKING FOR SHORTCUTS, either to an easy $$$ or to the top of thier chosen sport. As far as I can tell, the big WB boom was a result of folks in the US thinking that having a WB would automatically get them to GP or whatever. Obviously that isn't true, and the WB market has stabilized, and may well be in decline as the new "shortcut to GP" is the smooth gaits, collectibility, and high, round necks of Fresian and Spanish horses.
And Ingrid, is case you were wondering, the Fresian is being RAPIDLY taken down the toilet by people who don't believe in inspections.
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EclypseSporthorses
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As a mare owner, I would not breed to any stallion that did not clearly *stamp* his offspring. There are many stallions that are great, yet they are no where near pre potent, at all...
so no matter how much marketing, showing etc he does, he'd need to clearly reproduce himself, or like Ingrid said, what would be the point of breeding to him.
A side about the Fresian, I am glad to see some of the outcrosses I have seen. My dear friend that passed on to Heaven a month ago, it was her dream to breed Fresian x Saddlebred crosses, and she produced a beautiful filly on her farm just before she passed on. That filly is a great cross, better than any Fresian I have seen, and she will rival warmbloods in any ring.
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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As far as I can tell, the big WB boom was a result of folks in the US thinking that having a WB would automatically get them to GP or whatever. Obviously that isn't true, and the WB market has stabilized, and may well be in decline as the new "shortcut to GP" is the smooth gaits, collectibility, and high, round necks of Fresian and Spanish horses.
Interesting observation. Do you think that the "fast track" was a greater motivator, or the cachet of imported horse/European horse/expensive horse? I think the latter was more influential in the number of breeding operations that sprung up here, many of which have since gone by the wayside.
Another thing: back when my Friesian-breeding client was getting started, the issue she ran into was that her horses with their natural carriage and innate ability for collection were penalized showing in the lower levels of dressage, and her impression and advice she received was that they would be scored more favorably at the upper levels. Sort of paradoxical, as few riders in NA wind up competing at the upper levels. Many, in fact, buy a trained upper-level horse and never compete beyond 2nd or 3rd level.
And Ingrid, is case you were wondering, the Fresian is being RAPIDLY taken down the toilet by people who don't believe in inspections.
"The" breed...the Dutch registry/FHANA...or the other Friesian registries (FPS, etc.)? My understanding was that the other registries allowed outcrossing from the beginning, and are perhaps more concerned with numbers of horses and members than preservation and improvement of the horse breed itself.
A side about the Fresian, I am glad to see some of the outcrosses I have seen. My dear friend that passed on to Heaven a month ago, it was her dream to breed Fresian x Saddlebred crosses, and she produced a beautiful filly on her farm just before she passed on. That filly is a great cross, better than any Fresian I have seen, and she will rival warmbloods in any ring.
Sorry to hear of the loss of your friend, and it is good that she was able to satisfy her breeding ambition.
Whatever its individual merits, however, a Friesian cross is not a Friesian. Breed preservation and improvement--not outcrossing--is what the Dutch registry was about. I speak in past tense because I don't know the current state of affairs. But their genetic base was even smaller than that of the Trakehner breed, and it was of paramount importance that they keep the breed pure while improving it and channel all of their resources to do that. Thus, stringent inspection criteria and annual evaluation of breeding stock and offspring.
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« Last Edit: August 14, 2006, 11:23:16 PM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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TrueColours
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Breeders of unique coloured TB's and Sport Horses!
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My dear friend that passed on to Heaven a month ago, it was her dream to breed Fresian x Saddlebred crosses, and she produced a beautiful filly on her farm just before she passed on. That filly is a great cross, better than any Fresian I have seen, and she will rival warmbloods in any ring.
My first inclination was to say "Yuck!" to this cross, but then the more I thought about it, both breeds are very similar in their neckset, way of going, head carriage, etc - with one more refined than the other. So if the old adage of breeding "type to type" rings true here, it may be a very interesting and very well thought out cross!
I'd love to see pictures of this filly 3 or 4 years down the road to see how she matures and develops
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fuzzy
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Ingrid, I hadn't thought much about the "cache", of having a European horse being a factor in the WB boom, but it may be - right along with the idea that "the Germans are going to the Olympics on WB's, so if I get a WB, I could go, too". Never mind Keen and Seldom Seen . . . . . Or the fact that the scope of many WB's is very hard for a lot of A/O's to ride.
I don't get into the bit of what kind of horse I have other that whether he (or she) can do the job I got him for, and do it well, but there are an awful lot of fad-chasers out there.
I don't see the Gyspy thing going very far, and I don't care for Fresians at all as they are, by nature CARRIAGE horses, NOT riding horses (you don't want to see a Fresian/QH cross - you'll yak your guts out). I like driving, but I like a multi-purpose horse who can be nice and "through" in his under-saddle work.
To my knowledge, the daughter registry of the Dutch stud book is still pulling papers on horses who are used to cross, and who canot meet various other standards, and still doing strict approvals, but at least one other registry has sprung up which allows about anything. And then there are a few "breeders" who have purchased registered stock to start and then breed willy-nilly. They are now into the first couple generations of GARBAGE Fresians and crosses. I totally get the sport ponies, though - not only for improving small stock for youth and small adults, but as nice drivers for an ageing population of horsemen whose abilities are becoming limited, but who still have high standards for the animals they are seen with.
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EclypseSporthorses
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My first inclination was to say "Yuck!" to this cross, but then the more I thought about it, both breeds are very similar in their neckset, way of going, head carriage, etc - with one more refined than the other. So if the old adage of breeding "type to type" rings true here, it may be a very interesting and very well thought out cross!
I'd love to see pictures of this filly 3 or 4 years down the road to see how she matures and develops
Here is the sire of her filly, his name if Flurry~
Followed by photos of some mature Friesan/Saddlebred crosses:
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« Last Edit: August 15, 2006, 12:30:30 PM by EclypseSporthorses »
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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EclypseSporthorses
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While I think these crosses are great, I have to say, Shari's was better. Because it is not your dream, doesn't make it have any less merit, and just to further take the "yuck" factor out of the Georgian Grande, see the other cross listed below.
Racker is a Friesan X Saddlebred. The last photo of Glorioso and Elegante are the Saddlebred x Clydesdale cross. I would imagine many of you are competing against these horses, or seeing them at shows, and not realizing that they are *gasp*  half draft  *half Saddlebred. The reason I am posting this on the Trakehner board is that cross breeding was mentioned above, and bashed. There are other schools of thought out there, like that people not only have freedom of speach, though also freedom to dream outside of the box.
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« Last Edit: August 15, 2006, 12:29:03 PM by EclypseSporthorses »
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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