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Topic: What am I doing wrong? Kind of a rant... (Read 2787 times)
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Elizabeth
FEI
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Posts: 177
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I have had Holly for five years now, and Delilah for two and a half. This was the first year that Delilah started "real" training, at age four, and spent two months with a trainer. Prior to that, I rode her about once or twice a week, just walk and trot. She has been on the bit from the first day, just loves to work, never a buck (although a few crow-hops when she got confused  ). Holly is a different story. A very different story.
Holly turned seven this year. I started her at three, and have ridden 1-3 times a week since then. Holly has always been light and responsive, but I cannot get her to bring the head down or break at the poll without some sort of corrective device on. We've been taking lessons at a hunter/jumper barn for two years, and neither of the grand prix trainers that have worked there have been able to get Holly to lower that head. She schools all of the second level movements and is started on flying lead changes (important for "hunters" I suppose), but that head does not come down. The hunter/jumper instructors tell me not to worry about it, that her head position is perfectly acceptable for hunters. She does have a short neck so it is not terribly obtrusive. However, I know that eventually I will live somewhere with dressage instruction, and this just won't do.
Sometimes I get so frustrated! Why is Delilah so easy, and has done everything right all along, but Holly is so hard in some of the very same areas? I swear, Delilah will be at the same level where Holly is in less than six months.
Am I just working with a mare that will never be a dressage horse? Holly is great over fences, and shows the most perfect hunter form over every fence, no matter the height. She is so calm and never rushes a fence. Holly free jumps 4'6" easily. My trainer has schooled her over 3' courses, and I'm now working on 2'6" courses with oxers. For me, that is a big deal. I had a horrible experience jumping in college and swore I would never do it again (rode former grand prix jumpers that rushed every fence while on the equestrian team). I ended up at this hunter/jumper barn, and have been there now for two years, because it is the premier facility in the area and they take fabulous care of the horses. I am the only one allowed to "pasture board" because I have two horses, so it is a great deal for me. I could never afford this barn if I had to pay full board for both of my horses. I didn't even own a hunt seat saddle when I started boarding there! The owner has suggested that she might start having a dressage instructor come to the barn once a month or so, which I would love.
Should I just stop trying to make Holly into a dressage horse? I do have a lot of fun with her when I am not trying to get her into a frame. Whenever I think, maybe she will just be a hunter, I feel like I am settling, or giving up. Do I just have unrealistic expectations for this horse? Circles are great, bending is great, corners are great, everthing is great, just THAT HEAD!!!
My trainer is at a big show in Michigan until the beginning of August, and wants me to try draw reins on Holly when she gets back. I hate devices, I really do. Do they ever work in the long term? I just feel like I'm given one short term fix after another. Holly KNOWS when she has a corrective device on, and she does not resist it. She tucks her chin in and goes just great, but take off the device and WHOOSH up comes that head. I looked through an old dressage book the other day, and half the horses had a head and neck set just like Holly, even some of the horses that were in medium levels of dressage. Some of them were ridden by Reiner Klimke. Today, those horses would probably receive low scores in any competitive dressage test because they were "above the bit."
Fuzzy, I know that you know Sugar and Hostess, are all of these differences just from the mare line? Holly's mare line consists of mainly jumpers and eventers, from what I know, whereas Delilah has several upper level dressage horses on her dam side. Is it really all in the breeding?
Sorry for the rant. Between Delilah having that allergic outbreak and my marathon ride on Holly yesterday, I am so tired and frustrated. Not to mention sore.
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Elizabeth
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Joy
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I love Trakehners!
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Should I just stop trying to make Holly into a dressage horse? I do have a lot of fun with her when I am not trying to get her into a frame. Whenever I think, maybe she will just be a hunter, I feel like I am settling, or giving up. Do I just have unrealistic expectations for this horse? Circles are great, bending is great, corners are great, everthing is great, just THAT HEAD!!!
Regardless of her head set, If she loves to jump and comes from a great line of jumpers and eventers, maybe you should just let her be a hunter/jumper. I knew of a fantastic TK gelding a few years back. He was a beautiful dressage horse, and had an attitude that would not quit--bucking people off, kicking walls, etc., and generally not a horse for an inexperienced rider. Someone else bought him, put him over fences, and he was happy as a clam. A 12 year old was riding him on the A circuit the first year. He absolutely did not like dressage.
So, yes, maybe Holly just wants to jump, even if you get her in a proper frame.
WRT the head, the trainers I've had have been able to get the heads down immediately but "riding from back to front". See, that's why I hire someone to do it, because I don't have the skill. 
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Beckie
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What is Holly's breeding? Just out of curiosity.
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Beckie
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What is Holly's breeding? Just out of curiosity.
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fuzzy
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Elizabeth, Delilah's mom was the more consistent mare - in heat or out, and with no reguard to the weather she was a great worker. Holly's mom had no problems with a dressage frame, though her owner really taught her a "head set", and not to be truely "on the bit". That mare also was a "hormone queen" in heat. Almost unrideable in heat - not because of attitude, but because that "itch" was the ONE thing that mattered to her. Give a squeeze, and she'd stop and squat.
I sure wish you had access to my dressage coach. She's AWESOME. Anyhow, my won 2 cents on equipment in the matter is to try a boucher bit w/ a flash My gelding goes SOOO much better in that than a plain snaffle. And a flash. Does she do "stretchy circles"? Those are great to lift the back and get the horse really through. And of course the spirals that Eclypse mentioned.
I'll be gone for a week, but will check back in when I return from my fishing trip - hoping to find good news.
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Elizabeth
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Eclypse, we do spiral cirles in both the walk and canter in both directions. I think I'm going to have to give Holly a week or two off, though, as Delilah nailed her pretty well on the right haunch recently. She was not off on Thursday, but I lunged today and she was definitely not moving correctly on the right lead. A few trot circles and she worked through it, with no detection of offnes. Nonetheless, I would rather let that heal. I do need to do more spiral circles, but will definitely wait until Holly is completely recovered from her boxing match. Those circles are hard enough, even without a sore butt for poor Holly!
We recently had a trainer change at my barn. My previous trainer emphasized a lot of dressage moves (but he also insisted I keep Holly on the neck stretcher for over a year...), and with the new trainer came a big jump in lesson prices. I am now in a group lesson, and the dressage emphasis is gone.
Beckie, Holly is by Donnerkeil (by Graditz) out of Hostess (by Postillion). You can see an extended pedigree here: http://www.neverenoughpets.com/HalleLujah2.html.
Mary, I can't really ride Holly with a flash, because flash nosebands are not allowed in the hunter ring. I'm still holding out hope that some kid at the barn will want to show her in hunters this summer
I had a lot of fun with Delilah today. I originally planned on working her on the longe, but she trotted a few circles and looked at me like, "You have to be kidding, it is HOT and this is BORING." So, I took off the surcingle and rode her around bareback  That was a lot of fun! But...both of my arms did get sunburnt. My husband is always insisting that I have to enjoy having horses, and always look for what got me interested in them in the first place. Sometimes it is really hard to just go out and have a fun ride, since it is a very competitive and show-oriented barn.
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Elizabeth
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Beckie
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I have thought about this problem for a while and have a few suggestions. First, has this mare been chiropracted lately? She might be not lifting her back and dropping her head due to some irritation that is caused by misallignment or her hips being out. Trust me on this, I have curred bucking at the canter transitions and stiff necks with a little chiropractic and then riding loosely FORWARD.
On the FORWARD, try this. Free lunge (just in a halter) the mare until she gives her back and then reward her with your voice. Watch closely, if she comes over her back and drops her head and neck basically with nothing on, then she can and should under saddle. If she does not "give" in 30-45 minutes, then you may have some other problem to resolve. I am no expert, but I have learned that a horse that willl not give it's back and poll free on the lunge will not give it's back and poll under saddle.
Only one mare foiled me on this (she was totally confused with no contact on the lunge) and I put long, loose side reins on her and worked her into them until she came through and learned to rebalance herself . Then I rode her long and low and forwardat the trot. Now I can totally drop the reins and she keeps in balance and carries herself in a nice frame! (still working on those "stretchy circles".. but they are improving!). PS. She was all locked up behind when we started but two visits from my Chiropractor and she was willing to relearn her training.
Best of luck. 
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Joy
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I'm sure other people are telling you this, too, but y'know, sometimes the worst events turn out to be the biggest blessings in disguise. Here's to your finding the perfect situation for job, horses, and trainer!
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fuzzy
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Elizabeth, SOOO sorry to hear about your setback. And how rude! I don't suppose you have recourse to sue . . . . . .
Hopefully you'll be able to swing Wisconsin over the other options. There is some dressage in SE WI, and accessibility to places like Tempel and Lamplight and other barns for learning/showing. Not to mention the fishing in WI if your hubby is into that. My SO, his sister, and her family and I put a dent in the bass and crappie population in High Falls Flowage over the week. 
BTW, no reason you can't school in the flash - just switch out nosebands for shows. And to add the the drawrein thing - they do teach the horse to give, but ultimately to suck back from the bit rather than work into it - NOT a good thing. Much harder to "fix" than the horse that doesn't drop the poll and give the jaw in the first place.
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TwinGates
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Performance Matters!
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Had to concur w/others: NO to draw reins. I've rarely seen these used correctly - even by "professionals".
Does it feel like she's holding her neck against you (drops the back)? If so, this could be a pain issue. She's obviously willing to work, just unwilling to bring the head below a certain position unless "forced" by gadgets.
Unfortunately, your rude ex-boss makes x-rays to check out this possibility cost-prohibitive right now. You might try some banamine or other anti-inflammatory prior to riding her. If she lowers her head & brings her back up more w/no other changes, then try Beckie's suggestion of chiropractic.
Good luck w/Holly & the job.
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Joy
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Elizabeth, another option if you don't want to use chiropractic or if the chiropractic doesn't work is Equine Bowen. It's also called Animal Bowen, Animal Touch Balancing, and Equine Touch. Very gentle and extremely effective and rebalances the whole body.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Hey Elizabeth, good luck!
After I parted ways with my first lawyer-boss, he went on to represent my ex in my divorce a year and a half later. Unfortunately, there are some not-so-nice folks in that field 
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Elizabeth
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Thank you everyone to the good work wishes! Yes, Fuzzy, of course I have a lawyer Andy, my husband (who does love fishing, but more on that later in this post), called a really great employment lawyer in Cedar Rapids a few weeks ago, told him what has been happening, and he was more than eager to represent us. There are A LOT of employment issues that went on at that place. I can't really get into it here, since it is a public forum, but Ingrid's comment that "there are some not so nice people in this field" does not even scratch the surface with my ex-boss. The nice thing is that he put EVERYTHING in writing, and signed all of the very incriminating letters that he "now wants back." The guy actually had the nerve to say that he DID NOT fire me, when my termination letter was titled, "Termination of Employment Letter."
Our house is on the market, and I can waive into the bar in Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, and DC. Andy cannot waive into the bar in Michigan, but can waive into the other states. So, we are primarily looking in those areas. All of Andy's extended family lives in Wisconsin, and I almost took a job in Rhineland a few summers back (summer clerkship that would ahve probably led to a full time position). I turned the offer down because I thought it would be too dangerous to live in the same town as the Foster & Smith warehouse!!! Now I'm kicking myself about it. Andy has a ton of family in Kenosha, his grandfather was in charge of the whole Kenosha school system back in the day. So, that is an area that we are interested in as well. Yes, Andy does love to fish, and I grew up on the East Coast so I would like to live near "big" water again. I know that Lake Michigan is not the ocean, but it is close enough for me!
I had a lot of fun with Holly and Delilah this past week, though it has been in the 90's every day. I rode both mares in my western tack, and they went phenomenally. Maybe it is a saddle fit issue with Holly? She kept her head dropped the whole time when I had my forty pound Billy Cook roping saddle with full quarter horse bars on her. Today I had a pretty good ride, too, back in our hunter tack. It is a training and cue issue, I realize that. Holly does have her back up, so I don't think it is a back issue, and she did bring her head down, on her own, after we worked for about fifteen minutes and did a few series of trot poles. Tuesday we will do spiral circles!!!
On Wednesday, I rode Delilah, my four year old, in the western tack, and then Andy got on! He have never been one for tall horses, and Delilah is 16.2 hands, but he loved her!!! The two were quite the couple. Delilah was extremely careful, and just followed me around (I stood by the side the whole time). Those crazy Trakehners, right? This was after some girl tried to make an off horse go over the 3' course in the tiny indoor and whizzed six inches by me three dozen times. Delilah just stood there, kind of turned her head to look at me and say, "Mom, if you ever act the fool like that, I'll be really upset." Delilah was never bothered, though the other horse left the arena rearing and in a sweat. Actually, Delilah half fell asleep through the whole bit.
Andy was beaming ear to ear after he got off Delilah. He was amazed at how smooth her walk is. Well, the last horse that Andy rode was a 14 hand aged Arabian gelding who was wider than he was tall! LOL!!!
So, life is not all bad I am starting to see the "up" side of looking for a new job, as an opportunity to move somewhere we can both enjoy more. Andy is still working at the firm, and we are both supposed to be paid through October (we both have employment contracts). Paychecks are supposed to come out tomorrow, so we'll see how I'm feeling then!!!
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Elizabeth
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fuzzy
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Elizabeth, sounds like you'll do just fine!
And your putting Andy on Delilah sounds a lot like when we put my SO on Delilah's mom years ago. He is well over 6 ft tall, and still looked like the jolly green giant even on a 17.3 hand horse! My stirrups wouldn't go long enough so he had to go without - and he wore his motorcycle helmet because the horsey helmets on the place were too small for the self-procaimed "punkin-head". Sugar totally baby-sat him. But he hasn't ridden since - except motorcycles. He really has no interest in horses other than going to the Hoosier Horse Fair to watch the 6-horse hitches and the cowboy mounted shooting, (which he would do if it could be done off his bike).
Sounds like your big girls take after Mom in the gaits dept. Sugar is super-smooth to ride and jump and Hostess was pretty good ( glided O/F), but Donnerkeil belonged in the space program, if you know what I mean!
And you may be on to something with the saddle fit thing. Try the western saddle with the dressage bridle and see what you get in terms if give and movements. No horse in the world will lift its back into a saddle that's even a little ouchy. If you can get the back lift, the right frame, and the movements in the Billy Cook, you know it's the tack.
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Move to Wisconsin! 
Hope you find the perfect job & trainer soon....