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Topic: How DO the "Genetic Gods" decide??? (Read 1595 times)
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TrueColours
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Posts: 34
Breeders of unique coloured TB's and Sport Horses!
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I really puzzle over some things a lot ... 
Like - how can you breed the same mare to the same stallion several times in a row and the foals come out virtually like the same peas in the same pod as in the case of Faux Finish, Chai Latte and now Stonewashed:
Its spooky - looking at Stonewashed, its like looking at Faux Finish or Chai Latte with slightly different markings ...
This combination stamps the foals SO strongly in such a definate way, I really hope and pray that we continue to get such incredibly nice babies each year from the pair of them ...
Here is a picture of Faux Finish at a few weeks of age:
and one of Chai Latte at a week old:
and then you look at Stonewashed and he's virtually identical ...
Amazing how with some mares and stallions the foals come out SO identical and yet with others, they are SO different year after year ...
Here is Johnny Onna Spot by Spot Pocket out of Old Standby:
and one of his full sister - The World's A Stage:
They were night and day different in their looks, build, personalities, quirks, likes and dislikes, etc. NO ONE would have ever guessed that they shared the same dam, let alone the same sire as well and were full brothers and sisters!
I am just really curious to see as the years go on, if the GG / Puchi Trap combination continues to produce these virtual "clones" year after year or if they start to deviate at some point
And why some combinations DO produce virtually identical results and others never do ...
Any genetic gurus out there that know the answer???
And any other breeders out there that have repeated the same breedings year after year - which results are you getting? Identical or totally different? And does it change if you change the stallion and stick with another one instead?
I know when I asked this question many years ago about the HUGE difference in full brothers and sisters, it was explained that there were hundreds of millions of possible chromosonal combinations possible with each new breeding, so it was unrealistic to expect full brothers and sisters to look or act the same. But in this case, I now have 3 virtual clones of each other ...
So how DOES that happen???
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TwinGates
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Old Hand
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Posts: 2,342
Performance Matters!
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This is a fun thread. Can't wait to see what others have produced from the same cross.
Hopefully Connie K will chime in w/photos of the 4 approved stallions she produced from the Carino x Palma Nigra cross.
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TrueColours
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Posts: 34
Breeders of unique coloured TB's and Sport Horses!
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I hope several other posters come on with their identical and not-identical-at-all full brother/sister offspring as well! 
This was a response I got on another forum and you know I have read and re-read it several times and it really does make a lot of sense in what she is saying from a very scientific viewpoint:
Some of it is luck, and some of it depends on the amount of inbreeding in the parents.
For example, Guaranteed Gold is inbred to Milkie. You know that GG has two copies of the same chromosome with the cream gene. You also know that it is the same cream gene and the same chromosome that came from Milkie.
GG is cremello, so he only has a chestnut gene to pass on. There's a chance that he may have the same two chestnut bearing chromosome that came from Milkie.
The greater the inbreeding, the greater chance that there are duplicate chromosomes. So instead of having 64 chromosomes, 32 pairs of non identical chromosomes. ( Chromosome 1-a and Chromosome 1-b the version a and b could be black base coat and red base coat for example)
there would be pairs that are copies. Chromosome 2-a, and Chromosome 2-a making up the pair.
If GG has 4 chromosome pairs that have the same version of the chromosome inherited from Milkie, he will produce sperm that is more identical--less genetic varity between individual swimmers. Which translates into less variation in the resulting foals.
There's a lot of information on genes, and how they interact, sometime folks lose sight of the fact that genes live on chromosomes with thousands of their close friends, and they all travel together.
Hope this makes some sort of sense.
And you know - yes it DOES make a LOT of sense!
You keep hearing that inbreeding/linebreeding CAN be a good thing as long as you are inbreeding/linebreeding for desirable traits and not something stupid like colour or markings or something equally stupid ...
Milkie was a gorgeous stallion with a stunning head and fabulous conformation and his sons like Milkie's Desire, Gold Apollo, etc all possessed the same beautiful, chiseled heads and had flawless conformation and produced the same attributes in THEIR offspring as well. There are many conformation hunter champions floating around out there by both stallions ...
Perhaps there is a lot of validity to this explanation. That through the inbreeding GG not only got the double dilute colour but a "doubling up" of the "pretty" genes and the "great conformation" genes that allow these traits to be stamped strongly on his foals as well
And perhaps through some process that we dont understand at all, these genes match up perfectly with the Puchi Trap ones and produce identical "clones" each time they meet
I find it to be VERY fascinating stuff and will be really looking forward to successive generations of these foals to continue to compare them!
Here is a picture of Milkie's Desire - GG's sire:
and one of Gold Apollo - his dam sire:
I think the "type" that Milkie threw was very consistent and very identifiable so when you doubled up on these genes you have literally "cemented" them in for successive generations
Seems plausible enough for me! 
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TrueColours
Novice
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Posts: 34
Breeders of unique coloured TB's and Sport Horses!
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Man - you could literally superimpose Carino E with Karino's Fire and have the identical head and look and build to it!
Carino E seems a tad wider through the jowl and a tad longer through the face but everything else is SO similar (well - other than the colour and markings of course! )
And yes - I fully intend to continue with this mating forever ... The mare came through the foaling a little tough this time, so we wouldnt even consider trying on her foal heat, but we are targetting July 11th as her breed date after we let her go through her foal heat and then short cycle her 5 days later, so if she catches - great. I will be thrilled and if not, she gets the year off and I'll have fun riding her instead and we'll try again earlier next year...
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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But our core mare group was two half sisters and a daughter of one. That has grown to include another daughter for each of the half-sisters and a granddaughter of one of them. Plus, while he was alive, we bred extensively to Kaspareit, so we have a relatively small collection of genes to explore.
I would like to see a later (similar age) pic of Stonewashed to compare to the two filies. I think there is a marked difference between genders for some crosses.
Until this year, we had only produced 2 colts in 7 seasons, so we had limited basis for comparison to all of the fillies we had.
However, Tara
(pictured as an old lady  ) produced Tariana by Graditz,
 
a colt by Kitfox (not bred by us, but we saw him at age 2), and bred to Kasp prouced Tarika (age 5)
 
and the colt Tarythmic (age 4),
and now bred to Windfall made Tarantino. It appears that all of her kids get a mix of genes, but that colts tend to favor her more in terms of things like smooth-bodiedness, expression, and nobility. Her fillies look more like their dads. The difference between the genders is there even with the full siblings, Tarythmic and Tarika.
Her daughter Tariana,
who has only produced fillies, was bred twice to Kaspareit (Tanzelfe & Tanzfee), once to Impressionist (Tanzdiva), once to Windfall (Tanzbrise), and a Guy Laroche is waiting in the oven.
Tanzelfe
looked almost exactly like Kasp in a girl version with some input from mom; Tanzfee
is similar but has different bits of the dam (Tanzelfe got the shorter back; Tanzfee got the typier head; and so on). (Both photos at age 4, actually at ATA inspection).
Tanzdiva
 
(a really fat-looking Diva at age 4...) looked a LOT like her sire "in a girl." We thought we had a Xerox machine in our Tariana!
But along came Tanzbrise, who I need to get a new photo of, who definitely has some Windfall features but more from Ani, who at age two looks like a pea in a pod shared with her mother. And even in the ones that look most like their dads, there is definitely influence in the gaits from Tariana.
Tanzfee, compared to dam Tariana above
Ironically, Tariana is by Graditz, who was quite a stamping stallion in terms of looks and movement. Some of that makes it to the next generation of fillies...don't know about colts from this daughter, anyway...
Hmm. I'll have to show the last of the 3 original mares in another thread 
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« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 12:05:33 PM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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EclypseSporthorses
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Posts: 994
Go The Distance
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TrueColours,
Not only do I think you have a stallion that is producing great, I love that you have several markets to go into. To me that is such a wise choice, and for some reason I didn't realize that he could go AQHA as well. WOW. Nice to know you! GG is certainly going to take off as a stallion. The AQHA, Dun, Buckskin, etc alone is a great market, then the AHA...TB and Warmblood.... He is going to be a busy boy!!!!! I do love that cross, though sometimes it is good to give mares a year off, it pays off in the long run. Many people would look at Faux Finish and think that she is a once in a lifetime cross...looks like you are being BLESSED!!!! Congrats at her wins, enjoyed reading the articles.
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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Deb
FEI
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Posts: 208
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Well, I can't add much (except that I'm drooling over the pictures) but take a look: http://web.centre.edu/dajones/equine.htm
The top two fillies on here are full sisters and are nothing alike either in looks or personality. Although, I do see traits of Dad in each of them just not that same ones. I only see traits of Mom in the 2 yo. I am rather enjoying having such totally different horses though.
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Joy
ata
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Posts: 1,270
I love Trakehners!
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Lucky you, True Colors, to get such a good "nick". Isn't that what we all dream about?
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