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Topic: A question of ethics ... (Read 6158 times)
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TrueColours
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Breeders of unique coloured TB's and Sport Horses!
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Here is my "Gripe of the Day" ... 
As a Stallion Owner, I feel that I have an ethical and moral obligation to divulge any heritable faults that my stallion would have that could possibly pass on to his foals. Then the Mare Owners can decide if they are willing to take that chance on breeding to my stallion and possibly inheriting those faults in their foal.
Thats why - last year - when I was going to stand Umrigar (a stallion who I have adored for several years) and I thought that I was just the luckiest person alive when I had the opportunity to stand him and represent him, I was totally knocked for a loop when he stepped off the trailer, and we found not two, but ONE testicle on him ...
I PRAYED that he had one removed due to testicular cancer or an injury or something, but nope - spoke to his owner, was told that he was a rig (a VERY heritable defect) so that was the end of I disagreeociation with Umrigar and he left a few days later ... I simply would not lie and/or "forget" to mention to Mare Owners that he was a rig, nor could I pretend that it wasnt a heritable defect and tell them "not to worry about it" ...
Do Mare Owners have the same ethical and moral obligation to divulge heritable faults that THEIR mares have before you agree to send semen to them (bearing in mind that in literally 100% of the cases with shipped semen, you never see the mare in person) or are there 2 sets of rules - one for Mare Owners and one for Stallion Owners?
If a foal is born with a legs like twisted pretzels and/or club feet, etc - NO ONE ever asks who the dam is but everyone always wants to know who the sire was and then the sire gets the bum rap for producing foals with crummy legs
Or - as a Stallion Owner, do you need to launch the Great Inquisition and ask for pictures and details and send them a questionaire beforehand asking all sorts of questions at which point the Mare Owners will decide that you and your stallion are too labour intensive to deal with and probably look elsewhere ...
How DO you protect the reputation and integrity of your stallion without coming across as a P-I-T-A person to deal with???
... sigh ... enquiring minds want to know ... 
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Joy
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Most stallion owners that I've dealt with ask for photos, and I'm very happy to supply them. I think mare owners look for stallions that are prepotent in certain areas that their mares need correction. For example, I had a mare with slight bench knees. I bred her to a stallion that I knew corrected this fault. I sold the mare a few years later as a broodmare, and she's never produced a foal with bad legs. I have another mare with a short neck and mutton withers, and she's produced two foals with lovely, long necks and good withers--the stallions had great necks and withers and passed them on.
Fair or not, a stallion will get a bum rap for a crooked-legged foal, not because he produced the legs, but because he didn't correct them. Stallion owners aren't looking for mares to correct their faults, but mare owners are.
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fuzzy
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Hmmmm. I've not had a stallion owner ask for photos, but if I was standing a stallion, I absolutley would reserve the right to turn away mares (or owners) who don't meet basic quality criteria. Just as stallion owners and managers have a responsibilty to disclose (or geld because of ) chryptorchidism/monorchidism, EVA, club feet, HYPP, SCID, or other heritable problems, I do believe that mare owners have a responsibilty to disclose similar problems in their mares, or to NOT breed them.
I can't tell you how many foals I see every year that should never have been produced - not Traks here - I'm talking general horse poplulation. And for a variety of reasons: 1)garbage mares 2) sub-standard stallions 3) nice parents who were a terrible cross to each other because the owners knew nothing about gaits, conformation, and what tends to cross well and what doesn't 4) and owners who simply can't be bothered to teach their foals decent manners.
I often have clients tell me they want to produce foals from their mares. And most of the time, my advice is to just buy a good, well-broke young horse, because for much less money and work than producing a young one and raising it, they can buy one that is better quality than their own mare could give them. For the few folks with mares worth breeding, or the time and discipline to raise a baby right, I will make suggestions on what to look for in a stallion based on what they plan to do with it. 
So, anyhow, TrueColors, my answer to your "gripe of the day" is that we have a much greater responsibility to maintain quality in our horses, and honesty in trading them and their genes, than we do to not be a P.I.T.A. Quite honestly, I would not mind in the least submitting pix or video to a stallion owner, and filling out a questionaire. It would show me, as a mare owner, that the S.O. cares deeply about the quality of the foals that will be respresenting his/her horse (as is certainly appropriate), just as I care about producing the best possible foals from my mare. 
BTW, several registries do NOT allow the breeding/registering of horses such as the stallion you were going to stand - but then, most of them do not inspect, and only rely on people to be honest or be ratted out.
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SteveSamples
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Very interesting question. It's been a pet peeve of mine that we are an association that speaks of the value of the mares in our breeding programs (& rightfully so), yet in the pilot program it's more difficult to register a horse by an Arab or TB out of a TK mare than vice versa. (?)
Anyway, more to the point. I remember that in registering my Arab/TK mare with the ATA I had to supply front/side/rear shots to the association. I think it'd be great if stallion owners required the same of prospective girlfriends, maybe even accessing the ATA files (though that may be for Pilot Program horses only).
No wait! We could have an on-line dating service - Trakehner-love.com. It would administer a profile for each prospective stallion & mare then compare them for that perfectively compatible match. We could even run ads on late-night TV. Hum, is this how I'll make my fortune in life? Nah, I just want to see really nice foals hit the ground every year.
Ahem, maybe it's a little late after a long, hard day & I'm a little punchy. Thanks for indulging me.
Blessings,
Steve +
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Equine Connection
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As another stallion owner, we want to ensure the very best match possible for all resulting offspring. We always request photos (and preferably video footage, if available) of each mare, and mare owners are required to complete a detailed Mare Information Form to be signed by their vet. We want to make sure we're entering into every breeding with the best chances possible for all involved. And if we truly don't believe a particular match is right, then we are very honest -- and we have declined on a few occasions.
No stallion can "fix" everything, but like any relationship, there should exist an open, honest line of communication between the mare owner, stallion owner and the vet. We also talk at length w/each vet to obtain his/her honest input and to discuss protocol in advance.
I think mare owners are equally responsible to disclose any and all information about the mare and any concerns that should be put out on the table. Unfortunately, it is the stallion who seems to bear the burden for a less-than-perfect foal. But, it takes "two to tango," and it's everyone's responsibility as a team to try and achieve the highest quality end result possible -- it's our responsibility as breeders and IMO, the best way to achieve that goal is to educate and communicate. JMO.
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« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 10:03:57 AM by Equine Connection »
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Warm Regards,
Renee & Happy Hour
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Joy
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Actually, I have sent away quite a few mares over the years that I did not think would work well with my stallions. <snip>
I know very well what stallion of mine will improve on certain "issues' in a mare -<snip> And even had that horrible conversation with a few mare owners to help them to understand that their beloved mare is simply not "breeding material".
It is part of our responsibility as breeders to serve as educators and guardians of the breed. I choose to take the high road, and encourage others to do so also.
Thanks, Suzette. You said it better than I did. I appreciate stallion owners who know what their stallions will improve and what they will not. Personally, if a stallion owner didn't ask for photos, I'd send them anyway. I've sent photos to owners of stallions that I was just thinking about breeding to. On a couple of occasions, I got the "my stallion will fix everything" reply--nope, crossed them out, and "gee, I have no idea what he'll produce with a mare of that type", and crossed them out, too.
We all have a responsibility to produce the best we can, and my goal is always to improve on my mare. If the stallion owner doesn't care what they breed to, it's probably not in my best interest to breed.
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fuzzy
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Suzette - I have found out how crabby some people can get when you try to gently educate them on what is breeding material and what is not, and what might cross well and what will not. I guess some folks simply can't be educated and are simply a menace to society . . . .
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Deb
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When I decided to breed for the first time, I brought photos and video of the mare and had a chat with the stallion owner about them. We decided to go with a different stallion than the one I had originially considered. When she wouldn't take, I picked a mare specifically for that stallion and also ran her video by the stallion owner.
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sherry
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Forgive me if I think this string has gone away from ethics and toward marketing. Ethics to me means you tell everything you know good and bad about your horses--either for sale or breeding--marketing means you decide what horses are a good match for your stallion or mare. Please let's not confuse the two. If you decide a mare is not right for your stallion, don't pretend it's ethics--it's marketing. I try to breed my stallion to good mares--but that's not ethics--it's marketing--I don't want bad get out there. Ethics to me means you do everything you can to possibly keep your word. It is not ethically bad to breed to someone who desparately loves your stallion and has a backyard mare. The only thing that would keep you from accepting a breeding to this mare is not ethics--it's marketing. While I can understand purety of the breed concepts, PLEASE don't tell me it's ethics.
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Joy
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Sherry, there is not firm line between them. There should be ethics in marketing. Unfortunately, much of the marketing that's out there now (not just horses, but everything that's marketing) is devoid of ethics. If a stallion owner knows the stallion won't cross well with a particular mare, ethics comes into play when the mare owner is informed of that. If they both choose to breed that mare anyway, that's where marketing may come into play, but there definitely is a place and a need for ethics in marketing.
Example: Many QH breeders have no compunction about breeding and showing HYPP horses, and giving them drugs to help them make it through life. That is, IMNSHO, unethical. And a mare owner who doesn't tell a stallion owner about her mare's jughead is unethical, though the stallion owner may have made a bad marketing decision. Or to bring it closer to home, a stallion owner who doesn't tell mare owners about the stallions propensity to throw club-footed foals is unethical, no matter how highly praised the stallion is.
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EclypseSporthorses
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Example: That is, IMNSHO, unethical. And a mare owner who doesn't tell a stallion owner about her mare's jughead is unethical, though the stallion owner may have made a bad marketing decision.
Are you serious? Breeding a jugheaded mare= unethical? One of the reasons this mare was bred to my stallion was the improvements that he was expected to make, (and did) He has a powerful tendency to add 'Beautiful' to the head, no matter how 'huge' the mares profile is. You may have thought it unethical to breed a more with this profile, though she is a great mare, and the resultant foal looks very refined in the face. This mare owner was breeding for a jumper, and had a wonderful, though unregistered mare. So, in your eyes, I am unethical for breeding her mare? The mare (Penny) is built beautifully, so because she is athletic, built well and as gentle as the day is long doesn't matter, because her head is huge?? This woman is an excellent rider, farm owner/manager, jump rider and was is in love with our stallion. She is a biology student that is study in Ecuador right now, and training towards Grand Prix jumping. Take a look at this mare, I am sure her head would have been too 'coarse' to allow her to breed, in your mind, though the resultant foal has a very dished head, and improved atheltic ability. Owners are thrilled with her. *edited to add photos*
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« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 12:56:00 PM by EclypseSporthorses »
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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EclypseSporthorses
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BTW, this filly is as friendly and gentle as the day is long, she is refined and beautiful, and had I followed the type of advice above about not breeding a jug headed mare, this beautiful, gentle athletic filly wouldn't be here. I tried to ignore this topic...should
have, I suppose, though..silly me thought that breeding was for improvements...and that is what we, mare owner & I have done... Improved the next generation. One simple thing that our stallion improved with her mare was refinement, and her mare added size/height to our stallion. AND there is nothing unethical about it. Look at the last picture, the improvement in the 'jughead' is apparent. *
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« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 01:15:38 PM by EclypseSporthorses »
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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TrueColours
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I will buy the theory that there IS a fine line between ethical and marketing in some cases.
And yes - if the only reason I turned down a mare was because it had the ugliest head I had ever seen and I didnt want the possibility of an ugly headed Guaranteed Gold baby running around, I'd call that a "Marketing" decision - very definately.
But if my had club foot surgery done on him as a baby and he had a high tendency to throw club feet, that is out and out an ethical issue in my opinion and I am deliberately out to screw mare owners and take their money and the results be d**ned ...
That is why I felt SO strongly about Umrigar and him being a rig. In the racing industry, 99.9% of the owners dont know diddley squat about horses and if they were asked to pay a $2000.00 to geld their colt because he had to be sent to a hospital for surgery and laid out on the table, they wouldnt have a clue that it SHOULD have cost $200.00 and been able to be done at the farm if he had both testicles descended ...
I could not look at myself in the mirror if I stood him and all of these ridgeling colts were produced and now the owners of them had to pay $1800.00 more to geld them, plus they couldnt stand them as stallions either ...
Stuff like that just totally rubs me the wrong way ..
And yes - if I produced a club footed colt, I would have NO hesitation whatsoever in getting the surgery done on him to correct it and allow him to live a useful life, and then keeping him until he was old enough to geld, so he could never pass the defect on ...
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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Whoa, Christina, Joy didn't say it was unethical to breed a jug-headed mare!
She said it would be unethical for a mare-owner to not disclose that to a stallion owner, who thus would be hindered in deciding whether to agree to the breeding. I take it as a specific example of mare owners playing "hide the ball" on unpleasant cosmetic features or significant heritable defects in the mares, and take Joy's point to be that, yes, mare owners have an obligation as well.
We have seen enough pictures of your stallion and his kids to know what he can do with the mare's head, and in your case (where you know and already have shown us his ability in that department), the omission of a mare owner of NOT telling you that her mare had the head of a moose would probably not influence your decision. But for other stallions that may be an issue.
TrueColours, one of the benefits to having breeding stock inspections and approvals is that we at least know a stallion has two descended testicles...he wouldn't be passed otherwise. Except, inspections still wouldn't catch the rare instance where an owner might be so driven as to have "neuticles" (this is crazy  ...check it out http://www.neuticles.com). Anyway, that is a pretty significant defect and I think you were right to decline to stand that horse.
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« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 11:38:36 PM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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Joy
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Whoa, Christina, Joy didn't say it was unethical to breed a jug-headed mare!
She said it would be unethical for a mare-owner to not disclose that to a stallion owner, who thus would be hindered in deciding whether to agree to the breeding. I take it as a specific example of mare owners playing "hide the ball" on unpleasant cosmetic features or significant heritable defects in the mares, and take Joy's point to be that, yes, mare owners have an obligation as well.
Thanks, Ingrid! Yes, that was exactly my point, that mare owners and stallion owners both have an obligation. Isn't that one of the reasons we're sometimes reluctant to breed to an unproved stallion? Because we don't know what he'll fix and what he won't. And sometimes we do "test breedings" on mares--as I did with one mare I had--to see whether they'll pass on those undesirable traits. I would also say that ethics extends to the breeder as well in not dumping the foal if it turned out less than desirable. If my mare had passed on what I didn't want, I wouldn't have bred her again, and the foal would not have been registered, ever. In fact, when I breed--and yes, I do it on a very small scale, I always have in mind that this foal may stay with me for life.
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Joy
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<snip> or was from a bloodline known to be insane...and purposefully hid that information from the stallion owner?
This reminded me of someone I knew a long time ago. He was an outfitter in Utah, had a herd of about 30 horses and ran a pinto stallion with them. This stallion was known to be--yes--totally insane. He could not be handled, would, in fact, attack people, and many of his offspring could not be gentled and broken to saddle. One gelding I remember threw himself over backwards and broke his neck. The outfitter's assistant, who was a good friend of mine, just shook her head sadly and said, "He produces such nice colored babies, but they're all nuts." Then she told me the story of the stallion and several other of his offspring. In this case, I think the outfitter was devoid of ethics in breeding, though I doubt that he saw it that way.
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TrueColours
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Years ago I bought a beautiful black TB filly by the stallion Prosperous
All day long she would stand and kick out and it didnt matter if you had her outside or inside (she was FAR worse inside!) she would just stand there and "WHAM!!!" with her back leg all day long
Of course she developed some scuffing and cuts and filled legs as a direct result ...
Was walking around Fort Erie race track a month or so later and heard this bam, bam, bam coming from a horse's stall and there was this beautiful black horse just standing there, half snoozing, kicking the beejesus out of the wall. Yup - another Prosperous offspring ...
Got to talking with his trainer and he said "Oh - ALL of the Prosperous babies kick. We dont know why. They just stand there all day long kicking walls or in the air and we have to line their stalls with rubber matts to try and keep them from hurting themselves ..."
Prosperous himself? Kicked like a sonofagun and in the end, he ended up kicking through the thick planks of his stall wall, severing an artery in his hind leg and he bled to death before they found him
So - is this buyer or Mare Owner beware??? Or do race track people even CARE if a horse kicks as long as they are kept sound enough to run fast enough to win races and that is the ultimate goal?
And I have often wondered how a trait like this gets passed on from the stallion who the foals would never see in their lives and in most cases, were not even on the same farm with him. What the heck goes so seriously wrong in the "hard wiring" in their brains that a trait like this is consistently passed on to the vast majority of his offspring?
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EclypseSporthorses
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Kari, I totally agree. As a mare owner, it is up to us, finally, and our $$$$. It is the mare owner that, to me takes all the risks, and it is to them the final choice.
There are other issues in this can of ethics...I am thinking of a local Egyptian Arabian breeder. I have seen how he covers the mares, Chained to the wall, then has a LIP CHAIN on her with an assistant with a nylon lunge line on the end, holding it tight. After seeing that, I don't think I could ever let one of my mares be sent to a stallion. I was shocked, afraid for the mare, horrifed that everyone at that stable thought that was common practice. When we did live cover for some local mares, the owners were present and we hand held the mares (nose chain) and sometimes breeding hobbles. No one was harmed. I cannot imagine the quirks the mares leave that farm with. Not only that, the legs that that farm produces....talk about unethical. He sold off a Straight Eqyptian mare for $6,000.00 to some husband/wife in another state who had their dreams set on getting into the world of breeding Straight Egyptians. He began his marketing to them by acting friendly, making them lunch chatting it up and bragging up the mare...and knowing the whole time that the mare is litterally insane, and very consistant at reproducing it. Under his farm shingle it should say, known for producing club feet, bad leg conformation, horrible saddle positions and the occasional insane horse. (about every third one). He is the type of breeder that gives Arabians a bad rap. Talk about isolated stallions? Try a barn full. I think he has 13 - 18 Straight Egyptian stallions. I know the young girl who works there as the trainer, I occassionally give her dressage instruction, and she has tried so hard to convince him to turn his program around...though he won't budge. It is a very frustrating situation, and only the most common traits he is producing is straight egyptian, grey, colts, bad legs. In a way I am glad he is producing mostly colts, as they are not getting a ton of breedings, so they are not reproducing much past that generation. I have to compliment him in the area that, his main stallion is beautiful to watch at liberty. At times he can have a floating extended trot that drives the crowds wild, though he doesn't have the strength in his joints to maintain it undersaddle. 
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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TrueColours
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Aaaahhh Eclypse Sporthorses ... Egyptian Arabians ...
I boarded at a barn years ago who produced nothing BUT EA's as did another boarder at the same barn, Of course the ultimate goal is black fillies, so they were breeding mothers to sons and nephews and daughters to fathers - all in the pursuit of those prized black fillies ...
One mare in particular was club footed but had been surgically corrected as a baby, but wow - BIG surprise - her foals all came out club footed as well, but no biggie - they got trotted out to the vet hospital as sucklings, surgically corrected, sold on to new adoring owners for exhorbitant price tags (over the expensive wine and cheese parties under the weeping willow trees by the pond bordering the paddocks ...  ) to perpetuate their club footedness for generations to come ...
It makes you REALLY shake your head doesnt it?!
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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As a mare owner, it is up to us, finally, and our $$$$. It is the mare owner that, to me takes all the risks, and it is to them the final choice.
He sold off a Straight Eqyptian mare for $6,000.00 to some husband/wife in another state who had their dreams set on getting into the world of breeding Straight Egyptians. He began his marketing to them by acting friendly, making them lunch chatting it up and bragging up the mare...and knowing the whole time that the mare is litterally insane, and very consistant at reproducing it.
SO...if the owners of that mare were to decide that they want to breed it to your stallion, it's up to them? Would you risk breeding to a mare that is very consistant in reproducing her own insanity? Would you think the owners had a duty to disclose her propensity in order for you to make a decision?
It's a sticky wicket.
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« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 12:17:24 PM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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TrueColours
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Ingrid - for me - I believe in the case cited (crazy mare)that if we are talking about knowledgeable breeders here that are fully aware this is a genetic issue that could well be passed on, then I believe *IF* they are ethical breeders that actually care about creating as perfect a foal as possible, they *SHOULD* disclose this fact to the Stallion Owner. But w WOULD they??? Who the heck knows ...
If we are talking about Bob and Betty, two newbie breeders who think Fluffy is a fine if somewhat "active" and "sensitive" mare, they may not have a CLUE that there is ANYTHING to divulge to ANYONE and they could unknowingly breed their insane mare to your stallion and people see this nutcase foal running around by your stallion and point their fingers squarely at HIM and he's he one the gets the bum rap for the nutso foal ...
In that case I dont think Bob and Betty had any intention of screwing anybody - they were duped like the Stallion Owner was duped and c'est la vie ... a nutty foal is produced ...
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