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Topic: ATA alienation of appendix horses and owners (Read 4953 times)
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EclypseSporthorses
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Go The Distance
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1st, I'd like to say, you all have great points. 2nd=We all love Trakehners, don't we? I hope we all keep that in mind, even when we don't agree. Please try to remember that the other lady you are typing to, loves the Trakehner breed, every bit as much as you do.
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About Karino's Fire doing endurance, I would like to point out that Karino's Fire won in hand, then he won under saddle, then he won in endurance...so....in his case, in hand was an indicator for the future.
I have to say, that Jim & I had such great times traveling around with this colt, and even the shows that were 'just' halter, we have such great memories...I wouldn't trade them for anything.
IN all of this debate, let us not forget why we have horses in the first place, because we enjoy them, and they enrich our lives. I do not hear this enough from the Trakehner community. I hear alot about stallions, about foals and awards...we need to hear more about simply how having the horses around us enrich our lives, and bring us closer together.
While competing our horse, Jim & I had amazingly peaceful 1:1 time with each other and our horse. To us, what we thought was getting our horse exposure, really translated into priceless memories for us, and distance riding is the same, such thick, rich memories of us together, camping...with our horse. We all took care of each other. Does life get any better than this?
A HORSE CAN WIN AT HALTER, HUNTER, ENDURANCE, DRESSAGE & WIN YOUR HEART....LET'S ALL
KEEP IN MIND THAT WE ARE TALKING TO OUR FRIENDS ABOUT OUR FRIEND, THE TRAKEHNER HORSE. Like it, love it or leave it, the future of the breed & the association is in your hands.
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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This topic has wandered pretty far afield. There are so many issues here, but I feel like I have to say something about a couple.
First, when changes to rules are made (and again, I have gone on plenty about my opinions of recent rule changes, so I am not going to revisit whether I think changes SHOULD be made), what is the procedural difficulty in giving notice?
Changes to inspection procedure made during the season; changes to show and award eligibility made during the competition year; changes to fees in the middle of the calendar year (affecting some horses born that year, but not others); and so on. Why can't we have NOTICE of changes before they occur so that we may plan accordingly? What on earth is so difficult about saying "Yes, let's change X to Y and do it at the end of the fiscal/calendar/competition/inspection year"? Why must changes be made to take effect, if not immediately, in the middle of a season so that some members are affected and others are not? This practice is not fair to the membership at large.
Someone over on COTH asked, sort of rhetorically, if this particular change in awards eligibility was in conformance with the organization's regulations relating to process and notice. I guess so, because we do not seem to have any such regulations! (Which in itself is amazing to me.)
I will admit, I have a small dog in this fight. This year, our tenth year of having Trakehners to breed, we have two foals being born by an unpresented Jockey Club stallion. This is the first year we have bred to anything other than approved ATA stallions (and we have three foals coming by approved stallions this year as well). I chose to go with a JC stallion--as opposed to another breed--because there was the potential to produce ATA breeding stock, and I am (at least for the time being...though maybe a decade is going to be long enough) a Trakehner breeder. I made my decision to breed these foals with what I believed to be a fairly firm grasp of the ATA rules as they would pertain to my foals' registration and award eligibility (which IS relevant in marketing the foals).
Bam--rule change--eligibility is now different, cost of registration is now punitive for those foals. Nevermind that I made the choice to breed them LAST year...the rules were arbitrarily changed while the foals are in the oven.
Where is the urgency for implementing these changes during this foaling season? During this show season? What harm would there have been in giving the membership grace from the changes for the current breeding/showing seasons? I don't see the harm. I think members affected by changes such as these are justified in feeling a bit slighted, to pick, perhaps, too weak of a word. I feel pretty well jerked-around.
As to DSHB and so on being bad for the Trakehner--Come on. First, Trakehners are not exactly winning every open in-hand prize. If all they are good for is to win beauty pageants, they aren't doing that overly well compared to the other breeds, so what the heck are we all breeding them for? Obviously, that statement is tongue-in-cheek. We know the problem is not that they can't perform, the problem is that they do not often get into the right hands (supported by the right wallets) to get their chance to perform.
It isn't going to improve the perception of the breed to QUIT or REDUCE showing them in hand...that will only ensure that less people have a chance to even SEE a Trakehner. But it IS going to improve the perception if more are actively shown in ridden competition. We can certainly strive to improve the numbers in competition without cutting the knees out from under people who ENJOY showing their horses on the line.
With a young horse, an in-hand show record does have influence in the market place (as do breed inspections). Buyers are interested that someone with some degree of knowledge and authority thought a particular horse was a good one. Many--if not most--of our ATA members that are breeders breed and sell our young horses while they are young, frequently before they are an age to even be put under saddle. That makes those independent evaluations even more valuable to the buyer. It also means that many horses with in-hand records may never compete, depending on their new owners' circumstances.
Why is there an assumption that horses that do well in DSHB have peaked at that point? Why the assumption that DSHB winners can't perform, if they get the opportunity? Why the often down-the-nose attitude toward breeders who show on the line, and the intimation that those breeders are breeding solely to produce line-class winners, mutually exclusive of performance horses?
What is the difference between what the Cassels are doing, the Ritchies, or Hilda Gurney? Hilda, obviously, has the resources to put her horses into performance. Judy handles AND rides well and is able to successfully take her horses from the line classes to performance. Kari & John have done very well at getting their horses shown on the line and their boys successfully mounted to achieve performance success. Kudos to these breeders and others who want to do this, are able to do this, and do it well. And kudos to them for showing that, at least in some instances, successful DSHB characteristics correlate to successful performance characteristics.
But extending an in-hand career to performance is beyond some breeders' interest or time and financial resources. Some Trakehner enthusiasts would rather ride and compete? Fabulous! You go, and more power to you. No one will say your aspirations are not important. But what is wrong with the rest of the people doing what they want to, and what they can, and what also has value to much of the equestrian community and the marketplace, with their horses?
Our inspection committee has pointed out many times that our modern breeding goal is to produce horses for the Olympic disciplines, and inspection criteria are aligned with that goal. How can those of us who might be considered "purists" say endurance is a good thing to compete in? Again, this is tongue-in-cheek, I don't have any problem at all with Trakehners in endurance or any other discipline (for grins, and because the opportunity presented itself, I even showed my mare in Western Pleasure..it was fun but we kept lapping all the other jogging horses...). But if we figure DSHB is not important, get rid of those awards, and so on...what the heck are we doing with giving awards for, say, hunters? Yeah, OK, those horses are ridden, but that isn't one of the Olympic disciplines, either.
Yes, the goal is to produce successful sport horses. Yes, our breed is built on a heritage of inspections and high standards of selection criteria for breeding. Breeding stock can be produced only from approved breeding stock. But, at least in the ATA, we have no mare performance testing. Inspections, despite additional phases, evaluation of the canter and all gaits at liberty, and different weight given to various areas, are in many ways similar to DSHB judging. The horses receive scores, ribbons and "premium" titles are given to high scorers. And until the deadline for the stallion performance requirement, stallions and mares are equally sanctioned to breed, based only on the results of what could be likened to a SHB "beauty pageant"! (And right or wrong, our stallion performance requirements are often criticized as being too lenient to tell much of anything about potential for success in sport.) So if line showing is so pointless/meaningless/not indicative of quality, don't we have a flaw in the whole selection process?
For clarity, I will say that I don't have even a small dog in this fight. I don't show in DSHB, not because I don't like it but because I don't have the means or opportunity to do so. All of the breeding shows are a minimum of 4 hours from me, requiring an overnight stay. I do not have farm staff, and my herd would have little appreciation of awards won by one horse at the cost of the rest of them not getting to eat that day because no one was there to pass out food.
And slipping into the "Boss Mare" hat for a moment, to members here and to others who only lurk, and to any who hold the opinion (and have expressed the opinion here and elsewhere) that this forum is just too "nice," I don't expect any of us to NOT feel proud that our horses do well in ANY kind of competition against other breeds or even other Trakehners. If watermelon-seed spitting is your bag, so be it--just do it well. For those who poo-poo others' accomplishments in DSHB or anything else, why the need to rain on someone else's parade? Withholding congratulations or criticizing others for offering theirs doesn't make you a better person or bigger breed devotee.
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« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 03:32:41 AM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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fuzzy
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Very well said, Ingrid! Except for the "jerked-around" part. I can think of a couple better descriptions, but they aren't fit to print here.
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EclypseSporthorses
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Go The Distance
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Hey Ingrid! You have a good knack for touching on all the points in a post! Great Job! Just wanted to add that  Endurance is an FEI sport, and is represented at Pan Am and World Equestrian Games,  it is a medal sport in the International Venue.
Here is a quote about USET and Endurance:
In 1992, the USET added Endurance Riding to its
roster, bringing its number of equestrian
disciplines for which it oversees international
competition to five. U.S. Endurance riders have
had tremendous success, led by Becky Hart's
three World Championships in 1988, 1990 and
1992. The U.S. also won the team Gold Medal in
1988 and individual Gold Medals in 1986
(Cassandra Schuler) and 1994 (Valerie Kanavy)
and 1996 (Danielle Kanavy) and also won the
team Gold Medal in 1988 and 1996.
The above list of medals is not current, though I have to get back to work...The US is still winning in the 2000's
Just wanted to point out that it is an International sport....and endurance is a trait of the Breed. 
***editied to add***Ingrid, I understand. Endurance is clearly listed as a trait of the breed, though. AND Endurance as a sport is infantile...maybe in the future it will be an Olympic medal sport.
It is quite a normal thing for one to do with a Trakehner, and we ceratinly are not the only ones doing it. There is a growing interest in the breed within the sport of distance riding...we are lucky enough to have two very successful Arabian Endurance mares breeding to Karino's Fire this year.
Maybe by the time one of his foals grows up into the sport, and wins at it...it will be an Olympic discipline. The one woman breeding to him has already had her mare to the National Championships, and is aiming to Pan Am, wouldn't it be nice if she did do the Pan AM on a Karino's Fire baby? Too cool to even think about~ 
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« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 01:07:17 PM by EclypseSporthorses »
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Christina, again, not a thing wrong with endurance and plenty good about it.
My point was simply that, if we are supposed to stringently stick to the breeding goal of the "Olympic disciplines" - specifically listed as dressage, show jumping, and eventing - and award horses only successful in those categories, as opposed to expanding the scope to other ridden and non-ridden categories. Like other international sports, for example, reining, endurance as a discipline is not one of the designated subjects of the breeding goal. Yet we offer an award for endurance, plenty for hunters (none for reining, though ). So what is wrong with continuing to offer awards for line classes, just because success on the line is not one of the specific breeding goals?
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traktwo
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I love Trakehners!
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1) DSHB shows are the ONLY shows many breeders attend.
2) Mare owners like to compare several standing stallions side by side and check out a variety of offspring in the flesh. I like to see more than one item on the shelf in front of me. I could go to Iron Spring, Hilltop, High Point Hanoverians, Valhalla, but I’ve loved done all my comparison semen shopping at Dressage at Devon. If there were a dressage, hunter, jumper, or eventing competition that attracted many studs/babies, I would attend, but there isn't. Videos aren't good enough. Driving miles in every direction to look at different stallions/track down his foals doesn't make sense to me. All four stallions that sired my mare's six foals had impressed her breeder at DAD.
3) Many breeders shop for broodmares or youngstock at DSHB shows. I got an offer for my mare at DAD. At other competitions, I was too busy riding to chat with anyone.
4) Is there a better place to sell a sporthorse foal in the USA? Several breeders in this area sold weanlings for around 15k at DAD.
5) Right now, when American trainers and riders (and sadly, even breeders) are looking for youngstock, they often fly to European auctions. That's bad news for any ATA breeder. Are those auctions any more than beauty pageants? Wouldn't it benefit American breeders to promote DSHB shows as a shopping venue?
5) DSHB shows have under saddle classes in addition to in hand classes. This year, the Fair Hill DSHB show is also offering UDSF Young Horse dressage tests.
I agree that producing high quality riding horses is the ultimate goal. To do so, you need to start with correct, beautiful, sweet, sane, well-moving breeding stock. Breeders are responsible for providing that foundation. DSHB shows judge many of those traits. Then, the second thing you need a high quality trainer and rider to produce the final product which is best judged at a "real" show.
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traktwo
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I love Trakehners!
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Tannenwald -
Because there are no ATA approved JC stallions, it's a de facto rule that any breeder who needed to add some JC heat to their OSB mares would end up with foals in the OAB-B. I'm crossing my fingers that both of your JC stud foals are fillies (no ATA breeding stock hope for OAB-B colts). I hope your breeding goals are long term or I'm misinterpreting the rules, because apparently those fillies are stuck in the OAB-B for three generations to come...
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Actually, OAB-B fillies are eligible for PSB, and are therefore potential breeding stock.
And one of my kids has arrived and is a colt. An absolutely darling, charming colt  , with no breeding opportunities within the ATA and now fewer competitive opportunities. But whether he remains a colt or is gelded, and whatever brand or paper he winds up representing, he will be a very nice horse for someone
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« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 03:17:57 PM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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vienna
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Indeed he will Ingrid!
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helloagain
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Ingrid, the ATA Board sure could use your kind of logical, level-headed, and clear-minded thinking when making their decisions. Also, to make decisions in "mid-stream" looks mean-spirited--intended or not. 
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Shawnda
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I've been trying to get Ingrid to run for the Board of Trustees for a few years now. Maybe if we all banded together we could convince her ? 
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Joy
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Ingrid has already said she can't do an overnight show. Who among you will volunteer to watch her farm and feed her horses while she goes to the Board meetings? 
Okay, now that that problem is solved, I'm for trying to convince her, too. 
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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Thanks for your faith and for your persistence, Shawnda. I am flattered by your and the other offers of nominations, but just can't make it work.
Joy hit it on the head. I have only been able to go to the last two annual meetings because my sister has been kind enough to take vacation from her job, drive 4 hours up here to stay, and help my mom take care of the horses while I have been gone. I will be lucky if I can continue to go to the Annual Meetings, let alone throw in a second meeting in the spring.
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