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Topic: ATA alienation of appendix horses and owners (Read 4953 times)
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traktwo
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Posts: 14
I love Trakehners!
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Right now there's a thread on the COTH sporthorse breeder's board about the raised fees for OAB and the new exclusion of OAB Trakehners from Trakehner IBCs at USDF DSHB shows and DSHB HOY awards. This issue just adds to the negative public image that plagues the ATA.
I wrote the ATA an email. Here are some of excerpts:
1) I disagree with with raising appendix fees while at the same time revoking privileges. Depriving a fabulous appendix horse the DSHB HOY award in favor of a lesser quality purebred makes zero sense. Now that the fees are higher and the awards are limited, what's the point of registering theses horses with the ATA? We need to increase participation, not discourage it.
2) I don't want to participate in a Trakehner class that might exclude my colt's half-siblings. I would rather see my purebred lose the Trakehner class at DAD to a high-quality OAB than win a class of lesser-quality ORB/OSBs.
This rule change looks like a cowardly reaction to OAB horses (by unapproved sires) winning Trakehner classes and ATA HOY. Exclusivity should exclude the inferior horses, not the superior horses. I'm embarrassed that my registry is afraid of competition. The success of unapproved Trakehner stallions is something the ATA should not (and clearly cannot - despite its best efforts) squelch or hide. Banning these stallion from advertising in the magazine and excluding their foals from competitions is shameful. Either ATA should embrace them as a testament to the quality of the Trakehner breed/rigorous approval process OR admit that there is a flaw in the approval process and change it (see below).
3) Zarr, Feuretanzer, and any other high-quality injured Trakehner stallion should be approved. Any purebred NA Trakehner stallion that is in the top ten USEF leading sires (Zarr made it to number 3 in hunter breeding) should be approved. Zarr's wonderful foals who accumulated all of those points aren't winning under the banner of the ATA, aren't making new members of their owners, aren't contributing to the ATA gene pool (because their dams are TB mares that the owner's didn't bother to have ATA inspected given Zarr's lack of status)..they are excluded! If a stallion who passed his inspection cannot complete his performance requirements, there should be a way for his get to complete those requirements on his behalf. If several of his offspring are all capable performers, it strongly suggests that he doesn't pass on his unsoundness. The proof of a great Trakehner sire should lie in his offspring.
Anyway, I just wanted to discuss this issue with other ATA people.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
ata
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Welcome Traktwo.
Are you an ATA member? If so, send your name and registered username to ttp@atrakehner.com -- the forum administrative address -- to get access to the ATA members area on this forum. FWIW, there has already been some discussion of this and related topics.
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Maren
ata
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The Bouncer
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1. If you want to breed Trakehners, then you have to accept the rules, which state (for several 100 years) that stallions have to be approved AND performance tested. There are SO MANY stallions out there, do you really think losing a few will make a difference? I've had to pull horses out of my breeding program due of injury, and you know what, that's just the brutal reality of life....
2. If a stallion has an outstanding performance record, I am all for a go at approvals. Absolutely and under any circumstances. I am very much against non-approved stallions (premium with red ribbons and gold dust added) that get "full status" as such in the breed, because we have all agreed to selection strandards when we chose to breed Trakehners.
Is that unfair? In the eyes of some, sure. But in the eyes of many more, it holds the very standard of the breed, which is based on rigorous selection beyond a doubt and that selection is based on UNDER SADDLE performance, not beauty contests. If a stallion in Germany is injured and can't perform then that is life and the stallion will not breed, under any circumstances. I am all for that. And I know just too many others who have joined this breed for the very same reason.
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traktwo
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I love Trakehners!
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First of all, before the rule change, NA stallions NEVER had "full status." Their sons can never be approved. They couldn't appear on an official list of ATA approved stallions. The list goes on.
If the ATA is so strongly opposed to NA studs, why allow their offspring to register in the appendix in the first place? If you're going to let them register and withhold their breeding status, that was fine with me. But revoking their competition status? That is what irks me. What are the owners of a OAB getting for all these increased fees they are paying?
I support the ATA having rules. I support the ATA having strict rules. I don't support the ATA having conflicting rules. OSB horses should have every benefit. ORB horses have competition benefits and the right to audition for breeding priviledges. For a colt without the hope of breeding priviledges, OAB offers the right participate in competition. If you take the competitions away, you should just do away with the OAB, because what are you even selling?
I'm also embarassed because the driving force behind this rule change isn't to make the breed better, it's about saving face. If ORB foals were winning the DSHB IRBs and HOYs, nobody would have changed the rules. Changing the rules isn't the answer to this problem. Breeding better purebreds is. It's a cover-up and everyone sees right through it.
BTW, I am an ATA member. I first joined when I was 15 years old. I've owned OSB and ORB horses. I've never owned an OAB. My personal biased is for doign what's best for the bred and the ATA. This rule change just has "fear of competition" all over it.
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SteveSamples
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Pardon my ignorance, but there're enough abbreviations in this post that I don't know what we're talking about. Someone please decipher:
COTH
OAB
IBC
DSHB
ORB
MOUSE
Blessings,
Steve +
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SteveSamples
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BTW, this topic was introduced to this forum recently under the subject "Methods for approving stallions".
I fully appreciate the commitment to approving stallions based on their own performance. Yet, I might ask, "Would you deny Barbaro a stud career because he broke down before he could fully prove himself?". I'm not saying that the standard should be low or that it should be a routine thing, but when a sire such as Zarr leads the national list in a category for our breed, maybe we should take another look at that. I believe that as we build our breed's reputation and seek more respect (esp. w/hunter/jumpers) we might want to go with the stallions & breeders who are having the most impact.
Of course, temper my thoughts with the fact that I don't even know what the acronyms mean.
Blessings,
Steve +
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acottongim
ata
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I love Trakehners!
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Steve: aren't acronyms great?! 
COTH: Chronicle of the Horse (another fourm: http://praha.planetsg.com/Forum/index.php sponsored by the eq. magazine by the same name, many of us post there)
DSHB: Dressage SportHorse Breeding (the in - hand shows at dressage shows, this is the over all title and there are year end awards for them - sponsored by Cosequin)
IBC: Individual Breed Classes (at these DSHB shows there are classes that are open and based on the horse's sex and age, and there are IBC classes that are open to every horse's age/sex, but based on their breed; ie; there are American Trakehner Assn. classes)
OAB: Official Appendix Book (I think that is what it stands for... one of the many "books" within the ATA, horses in this book are offically labeled "part/1/2 bred TK" and they are not to move inot the main books - can be because the stallion/mare not approved, a parent is non TK... )
ORB: Official Registery Book (again, I think that is what it stands for: the horses in this book are "full bred" TK (or out of an approved T'bred/Arab etc mare and by an approved TK stallion or vice versa) but they have not passed an inspection for breeding - this is opposed to OSB (Official Stud Book?) that is approved and full TK breeding stock).
MOUSE? ? Have no idea other than the obvious 4 legged creature...
I think I have all that right in a basic nutshell! 
Back to the regularly sched programing...
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traktwo
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I love Trakehners!
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COTH - Chronicle of the Horse
OAB - Official Appendix Book
IBC - Individual Breed Class (Trakehner in hand class at a horse show)
DSHB - dressage sporthorse breeding (a type of horse show)
ORB - Official Registry Book
OSB- Official Studbook
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Amanya
ata
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Life is Choices
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Certainly there can be a case presented for both arguments. We don't want to loose wonderful stallions, and yet we want to make sure whatever caused them to "break down" wasn't even an indirect genetic connection.
You mention Barbaro. His owners have even stated that they aren't planning to breed him until they definitely know his broken (shattered) bones have not been part of a genetic tendency. Sure, running at 40 mph and turning your ankles can smash you up like that. But how were the bones before? Is there a propensity here?
It's the old nature (DNA) vs. nurture (environment/accidents.)
Also temperament. WHY did a stallion injure himself. Was he nutz, stupid, crazy? Traits we don't care for that might be passed along?
How can we evaluate this? Who can evaluate this? It is very very difficult, if not impossible.
Is it fair to exclude stallions that are injured, say in a stall?
Honestly, I don't know.
But in all fairness to the ATA, their stance seems to be "if in doubt", don't include the stallion. They are protecting the breed. And there will be, unfortunately, stallions who probably shouldn't be excluded, but as Maren pointed out, we go by the rules, and the rules are what the ATA has set forth, doing the best they can and I'm sure with much deliberation, to help us breed wonderful horses.
Here's a parallel example w/ dogs:
Years ago I raised and trained Border Collies, back before the AKC recognized them. Only working, trained dogs could be registered. And only if their parents were registed. It was tough. BUT, we had great quality dogs without genetic flaws such as epilepsy, retinal atrophy, hip issues. Were there good non-working dogs that weren't registered? You bet. Some that were super and might have been great workers/breeders. But they were excluded.
Now, this breed is recognized by the AKC and other registries, it is more popular and standards have greatly relaxed. Many dogs are bred, and guess what...epilepsy, blindness, etc. etc. are prevelant in the breed. It is a shame and makes me very sad.
So I can't blame the ATA for having their rules. Ultimately we will continue to have better and better horses.
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vienna
ata
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Steve:
I think Barbaro has proved himself. He really doesn't need to do more to be an acceptable breeding stallion. Any TB mare that breeds to him will have a Jockey Club registered foal. If he breeds to anything other than a TB that foal will not be allowed in the Jockey Club. Pure and simple. There would be other registries for that foal however. So the decision would be up to the mare owner. I doubt he will be allowed to breed to anything other than an TB mare, however. But the point is the Jockey Club has it's rules for 'admission' and how to get there. So does the ATA - if it is not acceptable to mare owners then chose another option. If it hurts the ATA by loss of membership than maybe things will change.
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Suzette
ata
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Personally, I don't see what the big deal is about these DSHB classes is. They really are meaningless if you are in this to breed riding horses.
It's a fun way to get youngsters out to see the world, but in the big picture, we shouldn't be breeding just for baby-beauty contest winners.
I have found that the competition for these awards is kind of a joke anyway, as it is pretty easy to win with the few competitors that there are in these classes. There are only a handful of IBC classes out there anyway(Been there, done it, didn't think it was important.)
If this is important for you, then focus on making it in the national placings.
Breed the best riding horses that you can, and don't focus on how many halter-class ribbons you can pick up. You don't ride the papers anyway, so don't get all sweated up over it.
As the owner of an ATA approved stallion, I can speak for us all and tell you that none of us are concerned about competition for mares with "free" unapproved stallions. Sorry, not a concern. Frankly, I am personally only concerned with producing high quality riding horses. Mare owners are free to go to whatever stallion they wish. If they want to breed to "free" stallions, or draft horses, or Kiger Mustang stallions, it has no effect on me.
If people wish to breed Purebred Trakehner Horses, then they must follow whatever rules are in place that define what must be done to acheive that standard.
Period.
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Karousel Farms, Breeders of Fine Trakehner Sporthorses.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
ata
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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I have written a lot about this and related topics. In the end, rules have to be made, rules have to be upheld, compromises have to be accepted, and in general no one is ever completely happy with the result because no matter what, there will be a side or individual who winds up with the short end of some stick.
When I read the announcement about the DSHB change, which as far as I know was not one of the more hotly-debated topics before the Board met, I thought that was perhaps implemented so that horses winning as Trakehners in Trakehner classes were in fact Trakehners. Not that I do not value partbred Trakehners, but it seems to me that the IBC classes and such should reward based on the breed standard exemplified by a horse of that breed. There may be wonderful Trakehner crosses - Trak-QH, Trak-Old, Trak-whatever, but how can you really judge them against a purebred? To my mind, a Trakehner should look like a Trakehner to be a good IBC-type example of a Trakehner. Following this reasoning, a Trakehner-QH should NOT look like a purebred Trakehner...it should look like a harmonious combination of its ancestors.
Maybe that wasn't any of the actual reasoning behind the Board's decision, but that is what I thought.
It seemed like a good thing to acknowledge part-breds successful in sport. Why not?
The practical difficulty is, without the possibility to compete a partbred in the line classes, most often done with young horses, people won't register those horses. Once they are competing, no one will ever know of their successes because they haven't been registered with the ATA. I think this system ultimately is going to run into problems as there is little motivation to register those part-bred babies with the ATA, which will result in less members and little money for the ATA from this type of registration.
Now, I said partbreds but that isn't really accurate, because of the disparate treatment of offspring from approved stallions versus offspring from approved mares. In reality, the Trak-QH cross has parity with purebreds for awards, while the QH-Trak cross does not. I don't see the logic in that distinction.
The thing about this rule change, and the fee change, that really bothers me is the mid-year cut off. The show season was already under way when the change for DSHB was announced, after people have made their All Breeds designations, planned their show schedules, and earned points toward an award no longer within their reach. The fee change, instituted June 1, was announced after foals for this year were bred. No way to avoid the change if your mare foals on June 2 instead of May 31. And the portion of the fee increase that was uniform across the various books--the $25 per mare bred fee--should have already been collected from the stallion owners, where applicable, for foals arriving this year. Taking another $25 from the mare owner on the birth of a purebred Trakehner foal is double-dipping.
Some changes are inevitable, but ATA members and breeders make plans that can reasonably be expected to be affected by changes occuring in the middle of the year. Previously we have had changes in the stallion inspection procedure/requirements after the inspections for the year had already begun, and that seemed very wrong to me also.
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vienna
ata
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Traktwo - all I am saying is that if trakehner mare owners wants an ATA approved foal (non-Appendix D) then they need to breed to an approved trakehner stallion. If mare owners choose to breed to anything else they have other options. Personally I would not breed to any non approved stallion regardless of his registry.
The rule change could have had better timing, but it was announced in March on the ATA site. Still early enough in the show year to have adjusted a show schedule, especially an in hand show.
The ATA is not the only registry with problems. Pick one you like the best and go with it. Bashing the ATA is not a way to get things changed.
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Maren
ata
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AMEN Suzette and Amanya, you've said it all, no need to elaborate any further!
I even have a problem with registering part breds (there are other registries for that...), but maybe that is too German a view and I understand that it's an important book for the ATA.
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traktwo
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If DSHB shows are meaningless, then why did the ATA need to change the rules?
I completely support strict rules about breeding purebred Trakehners. Never heard me complain before. In fact, I favor stricter breeding rules! I'm opposed to THIS rule change.
If the ATA can no longer allow OABs in the DSHBs/HOYs/IRBs then why allow them in the registry at all? Given that they don't have equal breeding status, why is it so important to revoke competition status too? Would it be ethical to start another book for 1/16th Trakehners, charge a $1000 registration fee, and exclude those foals from all awards?
An OSB stallion's offspring out of ANY mare is eligible for official registration ORB-D. Yet, an OSB mare's foal by an injured, formerly OSB stallion can't win the HOY award anymore! If that hadn't happened last year, would the rules have changed? Ruffled feathers = a rule change?! At least change the rules in a way that makes sense! An OSB stallion's offspring out of a Jockey club mare is eligible for OSB but an OSB mare's offspring by a Jockey Club stallion can't even enter the Trakehner class anymore!
One of things I loved about Trakehner breeders was their emphasis on the damlines. If the ATA really wants to shove out the champion offspring of OSB mares (which are forced in to the OAB ghetto regardless of the quality of their sires), they ought to firm up the rules about OSB stud's offspring (which are welcomed into ORB-D regardless of the quality of their dams).
If this rule doesn't change, I will breed a zebra mare to a ATA stallion and an ATA mare to Rosenthal (I love him). I'll bring the foals Dressage at Devon. I'll trot that zebra mare and her stripey ATA ORB-D foal into the Trakehner class. My OSB mare and her gorgeous foal (who no breeder of right mind would bother with ATA OAB) can join the other Trakehners in the ISR Old class.
There's a difference between "ATA rules" which protect the organization and the breed at the expense of individual breeders and "individual ATA members' rules" which appease certain members at expense the organization and the breed.
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traktwo
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Obviously the ATA is responsive to members' complaints or the rule change wouldn't have happened. Stop telling me that "the rules that are in place must be followed" when I am complaining about a rule CHANGE. Or are you implying that some rules are set in stone (ex: the SOs make/change/maintain the rules) and the MOs should shut up or leave the ATA?
Please recognized that I'm talking about a change in the competition rules, not breeding rules. Please recognize that this change CAN effect purebred trakehners sired by your approved stallion, and may not effect partbreds. I have figured out a way to point of the absurdity of this rule change in a way that even the most self-centered ATA approved stallion owner can relate.
Let's pretend..
I broke my hip when I fell off my amazing famous ORB ATA purebred mare at the Rolex 3 Day. Since I won't be able to ride her this year, I thought I'd take this opportunity to breed her to your stallion. You are overjoyed. I have just missed the only ATA inspection within 1000 miles of my home and because I'm in a wheelchair, I'd really rather wait until next year to have her inspectioned.
Spring comes, and my mare delivers the best colt your stallion ever sired, a real stallion prospect. You and I are both thinking that this weanling is going to win the weanling DSHB Trakehner HOY this year, if not Cosequin championships. We check the inspection list and the only ATA inspection within 1000 miles of home isn't until late September, after all the DSHB shows are over. I'm not wiling to risk transporting the foal any further. Do I bother paying the extra fees to register the foal in the OAB or wait until after the inspection to get the ORB? Oh wait, because of the new rule, even if I do register the foal in the OAB, it's wouldn't be allowed in the Trakehner classes and it's points couldn't go for HOY. Oh well, no champion colt for you. No dressage breeding points for your stallion.
Oh wait, your stallion's other (hideous) weanling colt out of a Pony of the Americas mare (registered ORB-D) came in last out of less than 5 entries (all older than he) in a few Trakehner classes, and has won the ATA weanling HOY! His picture is going to published in the magazine with your stallion's name under his!
Meanwhile, my friend tells me that her registry is having an inspection down the road next week, the registration fees are lower, and we'll be able to do those IBCs at the show. An ATA loyalist, I pass on her offer. I decide enter the shows even though I can't enter the Trakehner classes or qualify for an ATA award. The colt wins the Cosequin championship and the ATA ignors him. I post a message on the Trakehner board to voice my opinion that my OAB colt's success should be recognized by the ATA and all the replies I receive are "if you want to breed purebred Trakehners you have to follow the rules" and accusions of ATA-bashing.
A month before the inspection, my mare is standing under a tree during a storm. Lightening strikes the tree and a branch falls, permanently injuring her back (sound familiar?). She never makes it into the OSB. Why pay all that money to register the colt in the OAB? If they've taken away the HOY award, what's to stop them from taking away the other awards? If he's trapped in the OAB, he'll never be ATA approved as a sire. I post another message on this board, and someone tells me to "pick the registry you like best and go with it."
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« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 09:13:24 PM by traktwo »
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EclypseSporthorses
ata
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Go The Distance
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Traktwo, I totally agree with you. Funny, you nearly have my old log on name! Mine was TwoTrakes... There do seem to be double standards. Though I also agree that there have to be rules....it is a bit of a circular arugment at times...no easy solution.
As an OSB mare owner, I have looked at other stallions, and they do not produce consistantly, or even improve. Why would I want to breed to a stallion who is not pre-potent? I am sure there may be some reasons.... but usually you want a stallion that is pre-potent and consistant. Stallion inspections cannot prove that.
There is a wonderful warmblood stallion here in WI, he has a fan club (practically), he is wonderful wonderful wonderful...approved by several registries...and he is nearing the end of his breeding career....he is in early 20's...HE IS GREAT! He, however, as nearly everyone has come to realize....does not pass on the things that make him wonderful, he does seem to pass on height, though not bone, and he passes on his color. You could look at him standing next to several of his get, and not know they belonged to him. He is a great, multi approved stallion...but....not pre-potent for his greatness.
Stallion inspections cannot greatly predict how a stallion will produce...therefore, I do put value in the sport horse in hand classes, they are a foreshadowing of if the stallion is producing well. Considering how long it takes the world to realize a stallion is, indeed, pre-potent...I would think the breeding classes would be considered valuable.
:-\There have been Several discussions on this chat board about folks concerned with the ATA, and in one of them I remember quoting the decline in funds in a three year span. obviously, there seems to be a deeper malaise. I do not have the answers, or even know what all the problems are, though I can tell you that from what outsiders have told me, it is one of the least attractive memberships to pay for, so they have moved onto other associations.  Malaise somehow seems to be the fitting word. 
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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traktwo
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Suzette - I sincerely apologize if it seemed like a personal attack on you. It was too strongly worded. I was upset by the responses I received that seemed to ignore the issue I was trying to address (OAB exclusion from HOYS) and accuse me of bashing the ATA, trying to change the rules, and suggesting I go to another registry. Although what I wrote was NOT aimed at you personally but at the attitude of the replies, and it shouldn't have been. I really value your opinion on the banning of OAB foals from HOY awards. Since you think DSHB are meaningless, would you support doing away with those awards altogether, for purebreds too?
I'm glad to hear that my story doesn't hold. I had no idea that a lame mare with a "vet's note" can still pass inspection, given that a lame stallion who has already passed inspection can't get a "vet's note" to maintain his approval.
I never complained about the double standard that halfbreeds by an OSB stallion are allowed in the registry, and halfbreeds out of OSB mares are stuck in the appendix (even though mares contribute more than half of the foals DNA, thanks to mitochondria and have a profound influence on foal's temperament and manners). I never even complained that the ONLY time an OSB stallion's get is put in the OAB is when the mare is an ORB...favoring mustang and draft mares over purebred registered Trakehner mares. I'm not complaining about those breeding rules...never did!!!! If the ATA wants to change the rules so that OSB studs can breed to anything under the sun, and OSB mares can be bred to nothing but OSB studs, fine. If the ATA wants to change its name to the American Trakehner Stallion Owners Association, I wouldn't complain...because that's what the rules (prior to this change) basically boiled down to, and nobody ever heard a peep out of me!!! I paid my bills, registered my horses, had my mare inspected, bred to two different OSB ATA stallions, nominated my colt, had him branded, left the ATA stallion book in the hands of an IRS/Old breeder, and toted my ATA totebag every place I went with a smile on my face.
Banned from breeding = old rule = no complaint from me. Banned from competition = new rule = complaint from me. Now, with the rules changed, an OSB mare cannot bring her foal into the Trakehner class if he's sired by Jockey Club stallion. If the powers responsible for rule change don't want foals by non-OSB stallions in the Trakehner class or winning the awards, they should just ban them from the registry. I think it's unethical and reflects poorly on the ATA to take more of their money, hand them a slip of paper that just got more meaningless, while banning them from competition at the same time!
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« Last Edit: May 25, 2006, 11:58:16 AM by traktwo »
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Maren
ata
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The Bouncer
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That is what I am implying, Joy, regular horse shows with all the noise, excitement and adrenalin for youngster as a training tool. Yes, we take them to big shows and show them around, when they are barely under saddle as 3 year olds, and it has, to this day, ALWAYS worked very very well for teaching horses. I do not see the benefit of in hand shows when their only "value" is teaching young horses how to behave and how to handle stress situations. That can clearly be achieved in a million other ways.
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Jennifer Oettle
ata
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I love Trakehners!
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The original poster on the COTH forum does have a very valid complaint about the rules changing mid show season. Let’s forget about what division she is competing in for a second and imagine how you would feel if they changed the rules for dressage midway through the show season. I can guarantee any number of you would be pitching a fit, burning up the phone lines to the ATA, and calling every board member personally! Since the competition year starts in October, depending upon what region someone lives in, they did not have adequate notice to change their all breeds declaration before showing. While I agree that an open USDF ranking is much more important than an individual breed ranking, it’s not for me to say what should be important to anyone who is trying to compete within the guidelines, paid the multiple membership dues to the various organizations required to show, and invested their time and energy representing the Trakehner breed. You might say “it’s JUST in-hand” and a jumper rider might say “it’s JUST dressage”. The bottom line is that giving people ample notice of changes that might affect their show plans is just common courtesy and not very difficult to do.
Suzette – I distinctly remember you proudly posting about your then stallion prospect, Mystic Ice, winning in-hand and winning an ATA award (despite the fact that he appears to have always been the only horse in his class). It seems a bit ironic to now read your post about how meaningless these classes are to you.
Maren - it’s interesting to hear the “German perspective” on in-hand showing, but your comments reflect a lack of understanding of the American market. To some people, and we are not talking just Trakehners here, these classes are important indeed. If they were not, I seriously doubt the “heavy hitter” farms like Iron Springs, Hilltop, and DG Bar would bother. I daresay that wins at some of the bigger breed shows result in sales and bigger price tags for some of these farms. Even smaller little peon breeders like me have sold horses at breed shows – a very effective way to sell a youngster with minimal time and cash outlay. As a breed, it’s important to have some Trakehners in the standings as well. Prospective buyers, riders, and anyone who may be deciding upon what breed to buy, read these statistics and if they see Dutch, Hannoverian, Oldenburg, etc. and no Traks, it may influence their buying decision. OF COURSE, it’s more important to have Traks on the HOY Grand Prix list, but the in-hand does help better our image as well. By the way, I’ve never heard Traks in America referred to as “beauty contest winners” or leadline horses (these days, I see just as many typey Hannoverians so we don’t have the distinction of being the only “pretty” warmblood anymore). If anything, you will hear that Traks are hotheads and difficult to handle so when spectators see my Traks good manners on the triangle and around the showgrounds while some other Warmblood horse is ripping the shirt off it’s handler’s back (which happened by the way!), you can bet that people notice and leave with a good impression of the breed!! American sporthorse breeders have little marketing support (nothing like Germany!) from their associations and these shows do help bridge the gap a little. Hilda Gurney was very involved in implementing the USDF in-hand shows to support American breeders, and I think most people would agree that her “beauty contest winners” have done well under saddle as well. No, it’s NOT a guarantee that the DSHB Champion will become a Grand Prix dressage Champion – of course not! But a good moving, well conformed horse that has been exposed to horse shows and all that they entail at a young age may well have an advantage later on under saddle. Consider also the expectations of the typical American foal buyer – they want a foal that stands for grooming/clipping, loads easily on the trailer, ties, bathes, and does not freak out in unfamiliar environments. In general, the American buyer wants a young horse with much more handling than you would find in Germany. Not many showgrounds will allow anyone to bring in a young horse that isn’t entered in the competition for liability reasons (again, much different than Germany) so opportunities for exposing unbroken youngsters to different environments is limited here. The in-hand classes are worth going to just for the experience alone and if the horse happens to do well, it’s great for everyone involved. If the horse places dead last, that is fine too as he’s now got some show experience and will hopefully be easier to show under saddle.
It’s sad to see members telling other members how “unimportant” their chosen discipline is. We all have different interests when it comes to riding, showing, etc. I’m happy to see the Traks out there doing anything well. I think it’s fabulous that EclypseSporthorses has a stallion doing endurance for example. Why not? It shows an athletic horse with a good mind can do many things, including exhibit his good conformation, movement and temperament in an in-hand class.
Ingrid – I like your theory on a possible reason for excluding the OAB-D horses from “breed” awards. That does make a bit of sense in some cases. However, in the case of Feuertanzer offspring, they are often 100% purebred Trakehners (like Centurian, Pg. 30 of the last ATA magazine) so they do exhibit the breed standard. I guess there is no easy answer if the ATA is determined to “restrict” the appendix horses in some way.
EclpseSporthorses – good point about the breed shows offering some type of feedback on youngsters and foals. In a breed that NEVER looks at most of the offspring from their approved stallions, it sure is nice to have some type of early feedback on a young sire’s potential until the offspring can be evaluated under saddle. Your point about prepotency is on the mark as well – performance is great but it doesn’t guarantee the horse can produce anything even remotely close to himself!! An Olympic horse who sired few memorable horses in two countries after winning his medal and getting plenty of good mares springs to mind.
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Maren
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Old Hand
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Posts: 691
The Bouncer
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Thanks for your input, Jennifer.
I think I do know the market here pretty well, and because of it, I chose to specialize in riding horses. As I said, it is my personal opinion (and I might be totally wrong), that in hand classes are particularily bad for the Trakehner horse, except in hand champions end up doing under saddle work (Hilda Gurney is a nice example, the Kassel's or Judy and Steve Ritchie would be another one). And I also agree that endurance riding is a super model for the athletic abilities of the breed, in fact, with the exception of eventing, I think it's the most "Trakehner-like" discipline out there, these horses were MADE for that!
My prime concern is the lack of sport success of our breed as opposed to others, and the ongoing bashing of the breed because of it (and I'm not talking GP horses, the Trakehner actually has more e.g. approved stallions actively competing in FEI dressage in Europe than ANY other breed!). I am talking everyday, amateur sport success. And in hand contests, in my mind, just add to that general misconception. To see how much of the annual awards ceremony at meetings is devoted to in hand contests is pretty sad and I have been on the Awards Board for some time now; behind the scenes, it's even sadder.
I wish we would devote the time on this board discussing this matter to training issues of young horses and how to place Traks in representative sport barns.
But a good moving, well conformed horse that has been exposed to horse shows and all that they entail at a young age may well have an advantage later on under saddle. Agreed. Just as much as any well-raised young horse...in hand or not.
Seriuosly, if Trakehner breeders in the US would spend just as much time on performance issues, I would be the last person in the world to raise an eyebrow about performance "in hand". Unfortunately, I don't see it.
And I am not comparing markets, I know very well that Europe doesn't compare to America. What I AM concerned about though, is the thought of the breed standards not being enforced, if you will. And no, nothing in Germany is perfect either 
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