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Topic: U.S. Trakehner Jumpers (Read 4990 times)
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Heads up
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Posts: 11
I love Trakehners!
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Other than Abdullah, can someone please tell me other Trakehner's that have been successful (above training, preliminary, and/or modified levels) in the show jumping world?
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horses
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Preliminary
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I LOVE Trakehners!
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Margo by Laiken out of Marienburg from 1990-1999 was ranked by the Germans Second in the World for Trakehners competing at Grand Prix Jumping.
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Alicia
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I think Advocate and Horalas were/are shown in the Grand Prix jumpers.
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Heads up
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I love Trakehners!
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Alicia,
Thank you for your response. In my research, I just noticed Horalas also. He looks like a nice stallion and has a wonderful rider in Hap. I don't consider Advocate in the same category as Horalas.
Horses - thank you for your input on Margo, but I am looking for North American performance results only. I know there are many successful jumpers in Germany.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Sonset's Sieger, Special Memories, and Hennessey were shown in the jumpers, but I don't know what level they reached.
I thought Margo was an American mare, and just that ranking was German. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember her show results being reported from U.S. shows. At any rate, I believe Laiken was approved here and never stood in Germany.
Are you specifically looking for individual performance histories or bloodlines with jumping aptitude?
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Heads up
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I love Trakehners!
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Good Question. I am new to the Trakehner breeding and bloodlines. I am looking for proven bloodlines that produce (consistenly) Grand Prix jumpers at USEF rated shows that place in the top 4. I see many Dutch, Hanoverians, Holsteiner's and Oldenburg's - but not many Trakehners. I may not be looking in the right place, however.
Now, if I was looking for a Dressage prospect I would have no problems with Trakehners.
Thank you for your reply.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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Well, the reason you don't see so many Trakehners in those results is not many have been taken in that direction. Just a matter of circumstance. There IS very capable jumping blood in the breed and always has been. Not that there weren't others, but I am most familiar with the successful jumpers descending from Impuls in Germany. Of course, Laiken had several offspring successfully competing in the jumpers here.
I would also suggest a look at our bloodlines successful in eventing. Many of those horses possess the skill to have been steered toward the jumpers as opposed to eventing. Look at the Habicht lines. As examples, obviously Windfall is a capable jumper, but the young Sixtus son/Habicht grandson, Fandango, now in California, has excellent style and aptitude. Incidentally, Sonset's Sieger is an Abullah son out of a Habicht mare. And Larissa, the ATA's celebrated eventing mare, is by Target who, like Abdullah, is a son of Donauwind.
In my experience the jumper riders typically favor larger horses than Trakehners usually are. And some of those breeds have been more specifically developed and selectively bred for jumping.
To be certain, our inspection process for many years did not specifically select for jumping aptitude. The requirement of even a free-jumping phase in the U.S. stallion inspections is a relatively new addition. And in the conformation and "movement" phases for mares and stallions we are typically looking for good conformation and movement but perhaps that most geared toward dressage. Not that a horse with solid dressage conformation and movement could not be a good jumper, but my observation has been that often the successful jumpers do not possess "ideal" conformation. For example, many successful jumpers possess a more upright shoulder and straighter hindleg, sometimes with a slightly overbuilt frame, which renders them has having less than "ideal" conformation per our breed standard. Yet in reality sometimes these specific conformation traits actually give a horse an advantage over fences. So I suppose, to the extent that you can have a good jumper with this kind of conformation which is not favored within the breed, in some cases one might say we have selected against horses of that type with jumping ability but for horses with jumping aptitude that conforms to the breed standards of conformation and movement.
Beyond that, please remember that the other warmblood registries draw upon the Trakehner for their genetic bases. So many of the jumpers you see wearing an Oldenburg or other brand may just be carrying some significant Trakehner blood. Trakehners are a BREED, whereas Oldenburg, Holsteiner, and the rest are REGISTRIES. The difference being, horses in those registries carry the blood of other breeds.
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« Last Edit: February 26, 2006, 01:50:16 PM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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David Couch
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Another great jumper who seems to be forgotten was the NATA stallion Poprad. He was imported at an advanced age but he was on the Polish national team for a long time, kind of a national treasure for Poland. I dont think he is represented in any ATA stallion lines but he might have some mare descendants.
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horses
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Heads up - Margo is an American product and is owned by her American rider/trainer Ian Silitch
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Heads up
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David, I would love more information on Poprad and any of the mare descendants. Do you have any more information?
Horses: Thank you for your response.
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Beckie
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Also, FYI.... I hear that Ian Silitch is also currently training the Unkenruf colt Indio who appears to be coming along very well. Let's keep our fingers crossed for another excellent, high profile performance trakehner. Indio is well named for this career as Indio California is the site of the HITS hunter/jumper show series in January of each year.
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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I second Poprad. AMAZING stallion. Two times Olympian with my friend Anotnin Pacynski for Poland. Sire of the very good Aspirant, who stood at stud in Liski and later in Germany. A very potent line of black, substantial show jumpers. On my 2005 trip to Poland I visited a stud farm that did nothing else but accumulate Poprad breedings, on both sides, to cross with performance TB stallions oin Poland. We were all incredibly impressed with the offspring. Absolutely modern horses with good movement and just a killer jump. Nothing much comparable in Germany at this point....
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Beckie
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Cannot help but reply to this: My research shows that only Margo consistently and repeatedly won at GP jumping with 10 firsts  at Grand Prix over 6 years.
I bet Ian Silitich wishes this mare were still jumping based on how the prizes have inflated since she was competing! Bummer that Laiken's blood is no longer available within the breed!!
I wonder how he will do with the Donauwind grandson Indio who is with him now?  Time will tell. Let's all wish them well.
http://americantrakehner.com/Mares/Exceptional/Margo.htm
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Jennifer
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I didn't know that Unkenruf had offspring that were competing well in the hunter/jumper world. I was thinking more dressage! But then, I probably shouldn't be too surprized considering he was by Donauwind! So, there you go!
Maybe this explains why my Unkenruf filly tries to head over to the jumps all the time when I am riding her?? 
Margo was a Laiken daughter...and she wasn't a huge mare! Funny story about her was that early in her career she was being shown often and was winning and it turned out she had somehow gotten pregnant! I don't think they ever found out who the father was! She went on to even more success after weaning!
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Beckie
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Never heard that Margo got pregs on the show circuit!! Hmm, those late night games at the stable. Very entertaining.
Indio is just starting his training, but he seems to jump like a fool. My Unky daughter out of a Mahon mare jumped over a 4 foot pasture fence at the top of a steep incline as a yearling. I did not believe it when I was told until I found some hair out of place on her knees. Regrettably, I lost her to a pasture accident as a 4 year old. But, Indio's sister Indiana, and Unky's last foal is MINE!!!!!! I waited years after losing Enchantment for Unky to produce another filly out of a Mahogony line mare (Indiana and Indio are out of Inga by Radom).
Funny, just because Unky was trained in dressage we should not forget that a good all around sport horse can do (and produce) it all.
Best of luck with your girl. Another thing about my Unky kids..... boy, are they smart (and sensitive). Cannot let non-trakehner people handle them much. The horse gets WAY ahead of them. I am always careful while they are young so that they don't learn something I do not want them to learn.... they will Never forget it (and that includes bad habits!) I however LOVE THIS TRAIT. 
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automne
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I own a mare that is granddaughter to POPRAD... She is amazing... Excellent gaits, very nice conformation, and she CAN jump the moon...
If anyone of you (I've just registered in this forum!!!) have some pics of him or give me infos on him that I can use for my website it would be so kind!!!
here's a pic of her (1st time under saddle after 2years off...).
She is presently in foal to brentano II (hanoverian) for 2007..
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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Beckie,
I would bet that Horalas has the same, if not better record over Margo (whom I adored). Since no Leiken etc blood is available anymore, and I had the impression headsup is asking for currently active horses (could be wrong), I would check out the above mentioned and Special Memories for the highest levels. SM not only won GP, he has produced GO winning offspring. That is a whole new story.
Plus there is very good jumper blood coming up the ranks in the forms of Tzigane or Titulus, and I absolutely second Windfall and Fandango for serious jumper blood/potential. They happen to turn out as eventers, but that doesn't mean they didn't have the scope for jumpers. Windfall e.g., while still in Germany, won at 1.40m in regular show jumping competitions.
And Ingrid, the Holsteiners have a closed stud book and should definitely be considered a "breed" as well. Their only defined outside blood "refinement" comes from TBs, Arabs and French SF. They have the most amazing and proven stud book for seletive breeding of jumpers and no matter how we bend it, Trakehners will never be there. Weren't meant to be there, were never selected for the same thing. I have great admiration for Holsteiners and their athletic ability. And I am one of only very few who think that Holsteiners are the best crosses for Traks if you steer for jumping. We've seen some rather amazing horses from that mix in Germany in the past few years.
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Beckie
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Wow Maren, I agree. I am saddened that there is no more Laiken blood available to the trakehner bloodlines, but that is a fact. There are still two whole sons out of good mares, but they are "not approved" by the ATA. However, Elazar is approved Oldenburg and scored well in his 100 day performance test.
That said, I could not agree with you more. That is why I purchased a yearling filly this year by Schneekonig out of a Butow mare of the Donau mare line. With all of this great new jumper potential coming into the US, I decided I needed some more mares with strong jumper lines to breed to them!! I am patently awaiting my Fandango and Scheekonig daughters 3-4th birthdays so they can join the ranks of American Jumper Producers.
I already breed to Fandango, but Titulus and especially Horalas are definitely on my list as future options. Other stallions of merit with jumper potential include Hailo (Dam sire is Thor although he is trained in dressage.) I also had a contract out to Kaspareit when he passed away. Boy what a loss he was. Oskar also appears to produce nice jumping potential despite his dressage lineage.
Oh yea, and I did like SM. His owners are wonderful (met them in Ohio years ago). Not sure he was right for the mares I had/have at the time, but thanks for the reminder of his abilities. Will keep him in mind for the younger girls.
I am convinced that our trakehners can absolutely perform at top jumping levels, we just have to work hard at breeding the right lines to do it. Unfortunately, "sport horse" in the US too often means Dressage horse versus all around ability or jumping potential.
(PS. Tannenwald, you posted while I was writing my reply.... I am still interested in your "golden girl" tee, hee!!)
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Beckie
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I know about him... but I own a half sister out of his dam.
B 
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Maren
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Ingrid, that's really interesting about the Holsteiners. DEFINITELY not the case in Germany....thanks for that explanation!
With "available" I was talking about approved (aka performance tested) blood of Laiken. That is a shame about Zarr, but would scratch him completely off my list of possibilities. I think he'll be plenty busy in the Hunter world though, which is great too.
Now Beckie, don't get me wrong, but what exactly qualifies Hailo as a jumper producer??? I like that stallion, I've seen him many times, and I like his offspring, but I (and many others) see their potential clearly in dressage and hunters. I think when we talk "producing" jumpers, we should stick to a certain level of "proven" ability, and in that respect, Hailo has none or only limited prove out there competing. Thor indeed was a great sire, and especially in Hessia, where he stood most of his life, left a number of excellent jumpers. However, Hailo is a lot like his sire Anduc, and besides the sheer size of that stallion, I see only little Thor in him. Starting to look through pedigrees for several generations looking for that one horse that could jump is IMHO very contra-productive to starting a selection for jumpers. Just because there was some Pregel in a horse way back doesn't mean that horse is a jumper/produces jumpers, right?
Plus, Thor's brothers Heros (sire of Tümmler) and especially Impuls (via Kassius mostly) were much more consistent in producing upper level potential (and that is what we're talking about here when we discuss horses like Margo, Special Momories or Horalas). If it's still Thor you're after, go check on his son Mandant. Hailo is so far removed from that, both in appearance as well as in athletic ability that he wouldn't even cross my mind remotely talking about jumpers.
Producing something like jumpers (and this game would just as easily play out for dressage etc) in the most "scientifically significant" manner (while I don't believe science and horse breeding go well together ) makes the equasion rather simple. Look for stallions that 1) jumped above average, 2) carry that potential genetically and 3) where available (age), offspring show that potential is not based on pure luck. That narrows your list considerably. And you don't even have to touch Europe....it's all here in the US, right in your own backyard. Everything with the name "Galten Farms" attached to it is a pretty safe bet, because here both sire AND damside of the equasion have been selected for jumpers over a long time. I wouldn't mind touching a younger, rather unproven stallion like Hilton in that respect, simply because of the fact that I know his parents, and what they left the world for jumping. There is Advocate, Horalas, Special Memories, Tzigane and Windfall that fit either all or at least two categories of my little excurs.
I can tell you from personal experience that a stallion like Stiletto would also make my list, I've seen him jump, he is actually eventing right now, and holy smokes, that is serious potential. Same is true for Incantare, and he would make that list too, especially looking at Enrico Caruso and his many many successful jumpers/eventers in both Europe and the US. We tend to attach "dressage" to his name, but that is not right. I would possibly also check out Oskar, because he has the pedigree to do an outstanding job, and as far as I remember from his ATA approval, people were very positive about his free jumping demonstration. However, the last few stallions would work for me only with a mare that I knew well in terms of production record etc.
And I want to add, I am not against young stallions. I admire Titulus, I have seen him many times, in private too, and that is one SERIOUS jumper. But if you start talking about the whole "I want to produce jumpers etc" thing, then I think it would be best to start with what's out there right now, doing the job. And there are quite a few choices.
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Beckie
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Maren,
Thanks again for all the info! I have to admit that I feel like I am playing with a "slightly loaded hand." I have 2 mares by EC, another with grandsires named Donawind and Radom and a third by Schneekonig (Deadly Knightshade).
My two EC girls have the great grand sires of Pasteur, Amagun (EC) and Slesus/Antares so my 4th generation includes Gunnar, Tropenwald, Humbolt, Kobalt and Slesus (double on him). The fourth gen mares are Praline xx, Marquise, Amadine, Ethies, Peraea, Antilope and Jagd (on the bottom). Really old lines.
Sure hope my "scientific approach" produces something interesting. So far my yearling Fandango has a "butt" to die for. We will see with next year's Summertime cross. Hoping for a filly (of course). Everyone else is just to young to tell, but who knows right? I actually fear that their temperament and trainability will take them to amateurs rather than professionals who will really test them as they are just to "sweet" to pass up. (The locals call them the big "puppies"!)
As for Hailo, so sue me, I just like the boy!!!! Go figure. I also really like Oskar, glad to see he made your cut. I included him in my original posting but deleted the posting as I was afraid of being "Flamed" for mentioning a dressage horse as a jumper producer.......
Best always.
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Alicia
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Elazar is not approved Trakehner. I don't know if he was ever presented to the ATA. He was inspected by the CTHS a couple of years back but was not approved. Lovely fellow though and a good mover. I was considering using him if he had passed inspection.
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