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Topic: Draft crosses & Trakehners (split topic) (Read 4298 times)
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EclypseSporthorses
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I was under the impression that purpose of fulfilling the performance requirements would be the proof in the pudding, not that the horse needed to be perfect on a single day. How many stallions have been approved this year? Is the ATA's stallion crop that substandard? Should I only import young prospects and German semen? That goes beyond my budget and probably most adult amateur rider's. That's why so many try to create a "warmblood" by crossing the neighbor's draft stallion with their OTTB rescue mare.
I was wondering the same thing...if our system works so great, then why are so many young prospects turned down?
As to the draft mix....I have seen many part draft horses that were superior to more established warmbloods. Many part drafts are better minded, more sound, smoother riding and overall better than many "established" warmbloods.
In fact a friend pointed out to me that we are missing the original heavy horses in our Trakehners, and there for are moving away from the origins of the breed.
Back to the draft horses..We bred an exceptional Belgian mare to a highly exceptional Saddlebred stallion and have a coming two year old that if full of potential. The only thing needing improvement on him is possibly a refined head, though his head is not too drafty at all. He has exceptional ability to extend and collect, and a wonderful temperament. check out www.georgiangrande.com I think you will find some phenominal horses on there and they ALL have exceptional movement.
We had bred our colt before we knew anyone else had had the idea to make this cross, and we were quite thrilled to find that others had thought of it too and had great success with the cross.
Take a look, it really is a phenom. mix, and hey.... all breeds started somewhere and most warmblood breeds were created by mixing draft types with a refiner type. Today's breeders, chosing to carefully blend with the draft the refined breeds are making high quaility animals.
I imagine, if done responsibly, the third generations out of these will be Grand indead, and I have a feeling some of these "homegrown" horses will be taking center stage very soon.
~Christina 
Check out our yearling,Mandate for Gold.
He is a Georgian Grande by Mandate for Sunshine and o/o the Belgian mare, Country Pride Sandy
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« Last Edit: October 09, 2004, 11:33:20 AM by Boss Mare »
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
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Joy
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I love Trakehners!
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Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe the Trakehner EVER had draft origins. The native horse was a small horse, unlike some of the heavier breeds that were used in other warmblood registries.
That said, I have seen some very nice draft crosses--but they're not warmbloods, and shouldn't be called warmbloods. They are, if their movement is good enough, sport horses.
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« Last Edit: October 09, 2004, 12:02:24 PM by Boss Mare »
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EclypseSporthorses
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Hi Joy,
I'm not saying they had draft origins, only that there was a heavier type of Trakehner. And that type seems to have been lost. One of the reasons I was so distraught that Mystic Ice was not approved is because of his great legs and he seemed to have great bone, especially for a 2 year old Trakehner. Our Trakehner mare is too refined and I have been on the search for a heavier stallion... to no avail... there are a few out there, and really there should be more or this breed could be TOO refined.
Also, draft horse crosses, like it or not are considered warmbloods and can be inspected and branded American Warmblood. They have to be something, certainly not hot bloods or cold bloods? Is there a fourth catagory?  Don't get too serious here... I'm being light hearted 
By the way, here is Mandate for Gold's sire,
Mandate for Sunshine. He is a phenominal mover.
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« Last Edit: October 09, 2004, 12:02:44 PM by Boss Mare »
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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Joy
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Serious or not, American Warmbloods really are not warmbloods, though one day they may be. Right now they are a mongrel organization that is trying to establish a breed, but breeds take several generations. There are some very nice (actual) warmblood stallions approved by the AWR (or is it AWS?), so they're probably on the right track. But draft crosses may be called whatever they want; that doesn't make them warmbloods. You'll notice that many of those who call them warmbloods are those who are warmblood wanna-be's. Those breeders I've known in Maine and Colorado who breed draft crosses often don't have any idea about the history of warmbloods, and some, unfortunately, are trying to breed without spending anything on good bloodlines. I have no problem, as I said, with draft crosses. They are excellent sporthorses and many of them absolutely do give warmbloods a run for their money. A rose by any other name is still a rose, and a rugosa, though lovely, is not a long stemmed hothouse flower.
I agree that there were heavier type Trakehners, but they're not "in vogue" right now. OTOH, Traks never were as heavy as some of the other warmblood types; that's why they were used for refinement. I suspect there are more of the old type TK's in Europe than here. I wonder if they're being approved?
BTW, Mandate for Gold's sire is stunning, and I don't think your yearling's face is plain. He looks to be a lovely boy. I'd love to see the rest of him.  I have a trainer friend (who also owns a Hannoverian stallion) who swears by Saddlebred crosses for movement, and they certainly don't lack for color, either.
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« Last Edit: October 09, 2004, 12:03:33 PM by Boss Mare »
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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"Warmblood" is a term of art referring to any of many established breeds/registries, generally European. It doesn't mean the mix of cold and hot; nor does it mean "warmblooded." And in the modern context, it does not mean draft horse or draft cross.
The Trakehner has always been the most elegant of the warmbloods. That is why it relies on the infusion of Arabian and Thoroughbred blood, and that is why it is used to refine the other breeds/registries (ie, Hanoverian, Swedish, Dutch, etc.).
Warmblood breeds in general have become lighter and more refined to adapt to their changing usage. Christina, the picture you posted is of Ararad--he was at Trakehnen in the early part of the 20th century! There still are a few horses--even stallions--that approximate that "heft" (and even he did not look like a draft horse) but things have changed in the last 50-70 years!
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Joy
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Christina, I did not disagree that there are some excellent movers. The word "mongrel" means "mixed blood", and that is exactly what is happening in the AWS/AWR world. Is that a bad thing? Probably not. After all, to establish a breed, you have to start somewhere, and right now they're pulling in the best from many other breeds. After a few generations, they'll probably close the books to all but a few specific breeds. If they don't, there won't be a true breed, or even type.
Nor will I "pick apart" your yearling. The ONLY thing we disagree on is whether they're warmbloods. A Paint is not a pinto, because the bloodlines are not the same. A warmblood is a warmblood only if the bloodlines are consistent for warmbloods. What do you call them? How about "draft crosses"?
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EclypseSporthorses
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"Warmblood" is a term of art referring to any of many established breeds/registries, generally European. It doesn't mean the mix of cold and hot; nor does it mean "warmblooded." And in the modern context, it does not mean draft horse or draft cross.
The Trakehner has always been the most elegant of the warmbloods. That is why it relies on the infusion of Arabian and Thoroughbred blood, and that is why it is used to refine the other breeds/registries (ie, Hanoverian, Swedish, Dutch, etc.).
Warmblood breeds in general have become lighter and more refined to adapt to their changing usage. Christina, the picture you posted is of Ararad--he was at Trakehnen in the early part of the 20th century! There still are a few horses--even stallions--that approximate that "heft" (and even he did not look like a draft horse) but things have changed in the last 50-70 years!
Here is a photo of an American Warmblood, a Percheron/Quarter horse. Photo taken today, he did extremely well at Sorensen Park today, and folks, if the rest of the world lets them compete as AMERICAN WARMBLOODS, well, I guess that I'm not standing alone here, especially if they compete that way in USDF, USEF and places like Dressage at Devon, Sorensen Park, ect. BTW of the folks we were socializing with today, about four of them owned American Warmbloods, aka Draft crosses, and they are accomplished rider and proud of their horses, as we are proud of Mandate for Gold. And, I guess this goes back to the original statement that started this topic, yes, people are being lost to alternatives like the American Warmblood, and Draft crosses, and it isn't just economics- they have size, talent and temperament.
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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EclypseSporthorses
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Christina, I did not disagree that there are some excellent movers. The word "mongrel" means "mixed blood", and that is exactly what is happening in the AWS/AWR world.
All of the horses are of mixed blood, it is just if you are choosing to call it something else now. Like TB's. Talk about mixed blood, it is rediculous how there are all of these breed organizations... like today, I asked at the show what one horse was, and he was a Westphalian, though really he wasnt because his sire was Dutch and she couldn't recall what the dam was, though it wasn't Westpahlian, they just chose that organization. That horse could probably be registered seven different ways. The animal was awesome, I'm not discounting him. Just think about it though, talk about mixed blood...how many different organizations could you get your Trakehner, TB or Arabian mares into? It is all mixed. BTW the grulla gelding was on the Adult Team Championship Team, kicked alot of what you would consider Warmblood butt, though as I see it and as several national organizations see it... he is an American Warmblood, so he only kicked European butt.
And you know, even though he isn't my horse, I'm proud to be American, and I'm proud that a uniquely bred American horse beat imported horses today.
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« Last Edit: October 09, 2004, 09:12:25 PM by Christina »
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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fuzzy
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I like the idea that people are playing with draft crosses. These horses are often much sounder and more durable than the 'hothouse flowers' that many european warmbloods are. I'll stick with the Trak, because they are fancy, and tough. But if I didn't care about fancy, I'd get myself a nice Belgian/Standardbred cross from Amish country, and have one big indestructible horse.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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I don't think anyone is saying--yet--that a draft cross cannot be a good sporthorse. However, that does not make it a warmblood. The unfortunate choice of name by the American Warmblood Registry and the American Warmblood Society causes great consternation among breeders of warmbloods, European warmbloods. Had they been named "American Sporthorse" or something along those lines, there would be much less resistance by breeders of warmbloods.
The notion of "American Warmblood" is a peculiar one, anyway.  Is that supposed to be a horse of a certain standard bred in the region of America (which is not a "region," but rather a country or one or both of two continents), such as a Westphalian would be a horse of a certain standard bred in the region of Westphalia? Or is it supposed to be a sporthorse of American origin? If the latter, the breeds that are being used in this registry or ersatz breed are hardly of American origin--my knowledge of geography is poor, but I don't recollect hearing about the great American state of Belgium, am not familiar with the shires located in America, nor the La Perche region in the U.S. from which those foundation breeds would be originating. I hear more about people favoring these registries because of the use of established American breeds, including the Saddlebred, Morgan, etc. And that is great, but it still doesn't make the resulting crosses "warmbloods."
I used to ride a Belgian-Quarter Horse mare that a friend owned (Fuzzy may remember me talking about her) and I liked her very much. She could have been considered a nice sporthorse. However, that does not make her a warmblood, either.
One of the large obstacles these registries (and they are registries, not breeds, as they have neither a closed book nor a discrete breed standard) who permit draft crosses face is that breeding results are far less predictable. Draft horses have certain conformational features that will lurk in the gene pool and can appear in full force in successive generations, producing horses that look like they were assembled by committee, despite the attractiveness or harmony of appearance that an F1 cross may show. This can happen in many crosses of opposite type, but can occur "in spades" with draft blood. As a result, the use of draft blood in breeding stock may be more counterproductive to those registries in establishing a true breed standard.
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fuzzy
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Ingrid, yes it's interesting that the fuss is about the definition of a warmblood and the idea that as Americans we need to come up with our own. But we pretty much already had one in the Morgan, who was used here much like the Trak was in Eastern Europe, and has now taken a different modern shape and use that that of the Trak. Just a thought . . . . 
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Joy
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Thanks, Tannenwald, for saying so well what I'd been trying to say. The Trakehner (which among warmbloods, is the only breed, because it has a closed book) truly is the noblest of the warmbloods, and does breed true to form. It is indeed unfortunate the the AWR and AWS picked the name "warmblood" for their endeavors. "Sporthorse" would've been sooo much better, and no one would have raised an eyebrow. 
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Joy
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Christina, the world "lets" them compete as American Warmbloods because that's the name of the REGISTRY. A QH/Percheron cross, while a wonderful sporthorse that is registered in that registry, still doesn't have the bloodlines of a warmblood. No, I'm sure I can't convince you of this, and you don't seem to hear me when I say that they make wonderful sporthorses, but it's the pinto vs paint thing. The Paint registry is restricted--a closed book. The Pinto registry is a color registry, open to any horse of pinto coloring. The German warmbloods, even the "open" registries, are open only to certain breeds. The AWS/AWR are open to any horse of any breed with good conformation and movement. It is indeed unfortunate that they didn't call themselves American Sporthorse Registry and American Sporthorse Society.
Nuff said. All I'm doing now is repeating myself.
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fuzzy
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Christina, I just wanted to clarify a couple things. First, Paints aren't entirely closed. Horses with TB blood and QH with enough white ( QH is accepting white markings now) can get Paint papers. ;)And for the Pinto registry, there can be no draft blood of any kind. Drafts and crosses that come out spotted can go to the Spotted Draft association, or to the Gypsy Vanner registry, which is something I really don't get because there are no documentable decendants of Gypsy horses . . . . .
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manjanamom
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My aplologies if I have offended anyone for saying anything about draft crosses. I have seen many wonderful examples of the cross and have ridden a few. All in all they are nice riding animals with strong hearts and kind temperaments. I guess what I was trying to say is that as a small breeder, with the costs of shipped semen and often multiple attempts if the UPS god is not shining on you when you need it, I cannot produce a quality trakehner that the average amateur rider in my area is willing to afford. Having been a secretary for some rather large dressage shows, I can tell you that the predominent breed in the area is certainly not Trakehner. The big guys pull in with Dutch or Hanaverian and the Amateurs either ride one of the trainer's horses or they have arabians, quarter crosses, morgans, draft X Tb crosses (very big in our area and extremely competitive under saddle) or off the track TB. As a matter of fact there was a Percheron stallion that would knock your socks off in the dressage arena showing at a much higher level than any Trak at the show. I could usually count the trakehners on one hand. I'd make a point of going to watch that horse ride because there are so few. Why is that? Is it because we aren't promoting them? Is the economy? Are we just flat not a big enough breed? I know as a breeder in my area, I have to sell out of region or take a loss because as of yet, I haven't figured out how to do it without losing my shirt. I wish I had the answers, sure am searching, but do believe and love Traks and live in an area where I usually have to explain what a Trakehner is and what they can do. Hence, the frustration and inexperience at posting has caused me to offend. Again, my apologies, any horse of any breed should be respected for the job they do for us.
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