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Topic: Stallion Approval question (Read 2844 times)
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Michele
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Does the ATA still have a German Representive on the Approval Committee? Also how many are on the committee?
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Michele
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I talked to the ATA office, and said the only time we have a German Rep. during Stallion approvals is at the annual meeting. The regional approvals do not have the rep.,but one person on the committee has 2 votes. I thought it was interesting.
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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TANZBRISE by Windfall out of Tariana
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I thought, back when it was decided to allow regional stallion inspections, that Dr. Baird took the place of the Verband representative, I think due to his experience and participation on the Verband team. I did sort of wonder how that was all handled since Dr. Baird died, but did not realize that anyone was given a double vote. How is it determined which team member gets that role?
The biggest problem I see with the regional mare inspections is that scores seem to be wildly different depending on which inspector attended. I base that only on seeing the results in the newsletter, without seeing the quality of all of the horses inspected, but the means and medians of scores at the inspection do cause one to suspect that there are more and less generous inspectors out there. Maybe if there was more than one representative at each then consistency of evaluations could be maintained.
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shadytrake
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Several of us also noticed that the Central Meeting scores for mares tend to be lower than Regional. This is probably due to "more pairs of eyes" plus the added benefit of the German representative at the Central. When you have a group of inspectors, one might see something that the others do not. ::)hmmm, shouldn't we be as careful and thorough in our mare inspections as we are in the Stallion's. One pair of eyes can't possibly see everything. For example, there are several referees in sports events who view from many different angles. And, you all know that in "hunterland," many of us have "gotten a break" in a flat class because the judge did not see our mistake. 
I am personally glad that I was able to bring my mare to the Central Inspection. I feel that I received a more thorough evaluation.
So, do we need another pair of eyes at the Regional Mare inspections? I think yes, if it is economically and logistically feasible.
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Maren
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The Bouncer
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The most interesting thing at the central meeting is that the German representative only takes part in the stallion approvals. No German is involved in the mare inspections. And although most of the ATA's inspectors are present at the Annual Meeting, only ONE judge inspected the mares (at least in STL) and that's what I personally found unsatisfying. Too much bias, politics, etc in only one inspector. At least at the meeting, where about 10 inspectors come together, the mares should be judged by several persons. Would have helped to avoid some strange decisions in STL, I'm pretty sure.
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Lara, Gryphon Farm
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Trakehner Cowgirl
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The very same happened at Nipomo. There were two additional inspectors, including Hella Kuntz, sitting on the sidelines watching while the mares were inspected by one person. I thought this quite strange. If there are additional inspectors at a location, shouldn't they all participate? This wouldn't cost them any more as they are already there. Maybe a question of fairness to other inspections with only one inspector, but we all have the opportunity to haul our horses to whichever inspection we choose, right?
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shadytrake
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I didn't realize that only one of the inspectors graded the mares in St. Louis. If this is so, why were they bunched together in consultation during parts of the inspection? Also, how could there be only one when they split the arena to move things along. There were 2 mares going at a time in the at liberty phase. There had to be 2 at least doing this part. Which means that some mares were graded by 2 and some were graded by only one???
Don't get me wrong  I am perfectly satisfied with my inspection scores. However, I think that it needs to be consistent. And, I believe that the mare has as much to add to her foal's genes as the stallion. Therefore, I think the mares deserve a second set of eyes. Just my 2 cents.
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horses
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It is my understanding that the ATA stallion committee has three votes towards the approval of a stallion and that the German Verband has two votes. Hence the five votes for approval, always an odd number so ties will not occur. In the beginning of the ATA this system was reversed and Germany had three votes and the ATA had two, but sometime in the 80's the ATA got this reversed. If this is still the case, when the two votes are assigned to an ATA inspector, does he then also use his one vote and subsuquently end up with three votes?
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Michele
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If this is true, then only one person holds all the power. How do the current stallion owners feel about it, how do the people who have colts coming feel about it. I would hesitate bringing my colt into the inspection, because of a political atmosphere.
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Jennifer
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The only time there is a Verband representative at an inspection is at the annual meeting; and he/she is only involved with the stallon inspection. This does create some inconsistencies in the stallion approval process since there is no Verband representative at regional stallion approvals and the inspection team changes from three people to two people. I'm not certain about how the inspectors' votes are weighted except that it is my understanding that the Verband rep has two votes and that if the Verband rep is not at an inspection, then there is someone on the 2-person stallion inspection team who has been designated to have 2 votes.
I don't know why it was decided not to have a Verband rep at the regional stallion inspections or at any mare inspections. But, this may have something to do with the size of the USA and the relatively small number of horses to be inspected. Some sort of inspection procedure had to be established since the ATA began to require mare inspections. Do you require all mares to travel to whereever the annual meeting is to be inspected by a full inspection team, or do you have regional inspections with a smaller inspection "team" consisting of one person? So, this was the compromise that was developed. Nothing is ever perfect, and I'm sure this procedure will be tweeked in the future. (And the ATA mare inspection procedure involves examining the mare in much more detail than the inspections of other registries that I have attended.) If anyone has reasonable suggestions that include how to pay for the expenses of the inspectors (travel, lodging, time off from work) with larger inspection teams, I'm sure the ATA would consider them.
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horses
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Jennifer, if the two person stallion inspectors are in force and as you say the two votes are then assigned to one of them, then where are the other votes? There has to be 5 votes cast for an approval to take place.
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meadowview
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I have always supported central stallion inspections, even though it is a long way to travel with young stallions in some cases. I believe that it is important to see the stallions all together, and get a good perspective of what qualities are valued and what qualities are not, in a breeding stallion. Its also a chance to showcase our new young breeding stallions. I think that the regional inspections allow too much leeway in approvals, and the temptation to approve a stallion with less than desirable qualities is there. I still think that regional inspections serve us well for mare inspections, though. We need those owners in the association, and they may just not be willing to travel a long distance with one mare. A stallion is just a whole nuther thing!
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Brad Kerbs
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Unfortunately the ATA's inspection process has a good bit of misinformation circulating. Every ATA stallion inspection has always had and continues to have, 4 inspectors including all regional inspections. The Trakehner Verband have assigned their two votes in regional stallion inspections to the Chairman of the ATA Inspection Committee or his designate in cases when he cannot attend. The Verband usually sends a representative to the annual meeting inspection.
The ATA has 3 votes and the German Verband or their representative has 2 votes. However, the voting process has never been necessary because the individual scores dictate whether or not a horse is approved. Upon summary of the individual scores, the decision becomes clear. The voting process has never been necessary in my dozen years on the committee as the decision has been unanimous as a result of scoring.
As in all walks of life, one can never satisfy 100% of the people 100% of the time. Over the last several years the number of complaints from the inspection process have diminished. Perhaps this is because of the more robust reports to owners as well as oral commentary immediate post-inspection of mares.
Still there are the disgruntled few that voice complaints widely. We are sure there will always be some who are disappointed in the process, but that is no different than other horse competitions where subjective placings are made by judges.
For almost 10 years there has been only one inspector for ALL mare inspections. This process was created to allow mare owners at regional inspections to be treated the same as central inspections. Contrary to what has been reported, all mares at central inspections were scored by only one inspector. There may have been more than one inspector at certain inspections, but they were present as a scribe or apprentice.
Since the US and Canada are FIFTY FOLD the size of Germany, the decision to have one inspector for mare inspections was made for practical and economic reasons. Because the mares are widely dispersed across such a vast continent, a single mare inspector made it practical to travel while keeping the costs to owners reasonable. Most feedback from owners attending inspections over the last several years has been positive. We have even received a number of spontaneous comments from owners who have had the same horse inspected by other breed registries and the owners mention the ATA process is more comprehensive, objective and open.
The volunteer inspectors for the ATA are only doing what the ATA membership has asked them to do. They do that job with the utmost of integrity. Irrespective of who owns the horse or the owner's influence in the horse world or the association, the inspectors only judge the horse. I know. I have personally observed their behavior and commitment to this integrity for the last dozen years. And they do so voluntarily and without complaint. Every horse organization should be so lucky.
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shadytrake
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Brad,
How could there have been only one inspector scoring the mares at last year's show when they split the arenas for the at liberty phase? They even announced it because of the number of horses to be inspected. They had to have had an inspector in each ring which means that unless they split the mares in TWO groups with ONE inspector per group at the BEGINNING of the inspections (hard surface etc.), then SOME mares were inspected by TWO people and SOME were inspected by ONE person. Or, were the scores already tabulated prior to the at liberty phase? I am sure that this was not the case since that is part of the inspection process.
Please clarify and correct me if I am wrong. I really do want to know.
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Brad Kerbs
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There were two inspectors each responsible for half the mares. The arena was split into two areas and there were two triangles and two liberty areas, so not just for the liberty phase.
Some inspectors can score and make their own notations simutaneously (I for one, Rhea Gibble for another). Others prefer a scribe and sometimes that scribe is another inspector. Where there are two inspectors in the arena, only one is scoring and often the other is scribing. Other times another inspector is there just as an observer and that may have appeared as having two judges....that is not the case but I can see now how that impression could occur. The official inspector is the one making the oral commentary post inspection.
We have done this splitting of the mare groups extensively over the last few years where we have lots of mares, especially this year are several regional inspections. It speeds up the process.
We as an inspection team need to do a better job of announcing in the beginning of an inspection the splitting process. Often times mare owners are back in the stable area prepping their horse and do not become aware of the process explanation in the beginning.
I hope this is helpful and thanks for sharing your impression. We all can learn (including me) from sharing your view point and impression.
Going forward with the Trakehner horse!
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shadytrake
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Brad,
Thanks for clearing that point. You are right. When we are primping our horses to look their best, sometimes we don't hear all of the announcements.
See you at the meeting in FL.
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), but I think we should have one German Rep. for both mare and stallion inspections, as the quality of the mares approved is also of the utmost importance. But, logistically, I suppose this just is not practical. However, I personally disagree with the requirement of only one inspector for mares. JMO 