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Topic: Another Registration Eligibility Thread - Spin Off from Anglo-Trakehner Foal Announcement (Read 3885 times)
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EclypseSporthorses
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Go The Distance
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Not to change subject from this obviously marvelous Blond Beauty....
Though doesn't it seem odd that loophole is there? There is such a brohaha about NA Trakehner stallions.... and yet this loop hole is there? I think it is a good thing, though it almost makes one wonder, if I had a TB or Arab stallion, what would be the point of presenting if the foals are eligible anyway?
A filly by a NA Trakehner stallion wouldn't be eligible, though a filly by a NA TB/Shagya/Arab would be? Sorry...this gets confusing to me...not trying to be negative, just understand the guidelines.
I think it is a good way to do it, because some of the best TB stallions or Arab/shagya....may have zero interest in Trakehner approval, though they may be the best horses out there. It brodens the gene pool to trust the Trakehner mare owner to go out there and pick a stallion, and have the filly inspected later, though -do I understand it right that it is only fillies that are eligible?
***Ingrid, I totally understand if you shuffle this thread to a new one....*** sorry to go off topic on your golden lady...she is awesome, and a great nick.
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"Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart."
Psalm 37:4
~*Ride-Far-Ride-Well*~
*^The Sky's the Limit^*~
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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Thanks again, everyone 
I don't think I would characterize this as a loop hole, which sounds like some backdoor opportunity that shouldn't exist or that someone forgot to close.
I don't think this is another of the quirks in our collection of rules.
I think you answered a large part of your own question...it is an alternative method of bringing blood into the stud book, which is important as it is not particularly appealing from an economic standpoint for owners of TB and Arab stallions to go through the approval and licensing process, even if they meet the performance requirement threshold. This allows for entry of more diverse TB and Arab bloodlines.
Plus, allowing TB and Arab blood into the gene pool through a half-Trakehner upon inspection of that half-Trakehner is a good way to bring in a bit of blood that is already tempered by the Trakehner-half of the pedigree.
Actually, doesn't it make more sense, in terms of getting an idea of how the blood that is introduced will mesh with the Trakehner, to inspect the half-Trakehner offspring of a TB or Arab and approve them on a case by case basis, as opposed to inspecting and approving a pure blood stallion (or a pure blood mare) and waiting to see how he (or she) crosses with a Trakehner?
From that standpoint, I think bringing blood in through Anglo- or Arab-Trakehners is more predictable than using the system formerly known as the Pilot Program (I don't know what it is called now) or allowing pure TB or Arabs in through the PSB.
The eligibility of OAB-B and OAB-C fillies also means that the blood is coming in on the top, the time-honored method of introducing blood to warmblood breeds (while of course, not the only road to Rome). The influence is self-limiting, since a mare can produce only so many foals (realistically, in the biological and financial senses).
That said, I don't know why OAB-B and OAB-C colts can't be eligible. Why can we inspect a purebred TB or Arab stallion, but not a half-TB or half-Arab out of an approved Trakehner mare?
Another of the many mysteries...like why is foal by an approved Trakehner stallion out of almost ANY mare (OSB Trakehner, Clydesdale, Shetland Pony, or grade) eligible for the Official Registry Book, BUT a foal by an approved Trakehner stallion out of a purebred and ORB REGISTERED Trakehner mare that has not yet been inspected is only eligible for the Appendix Book? That means the only kids of ATA stallions that CAN'T be ORB are pure Trakehner...wild.
Why can 15/16 Trakehner fillies get into the OSB?
And what IS a "jumbo shrimp," anyway 
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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Why can 15/16 Trakehner fillies get into the OSB? They can? Or did you mean "why can't they?"
No, I mean "why CAN."
ARTICLE VII. HORSES ELIGIBLE FOR INCLUSION IN THE OFFICIAL STUD
BOOK
§2.(c) In the year in which they turn three, or later, fourth generation (15/16 Trakehner) part-
Trakehner fillies registered in Division D of the Official Registry Book and tracing back without a
break to a mare registered with the ATA in 1983 or earlier are eligible for transfer to the Official
Stud Book if deemed acceptable after personal inspection by a member or members of the
Inspection Committee.
Meanwhile 63/64 is considered "pure" (Section A eligible) for the ORB:
ARTICLE III. OFFICIAL REGISTRY BOOK
§1. The Official Registry Book of the Association shall consist of five divisions:
(A) Purebred Trakehner, composed of: Trakehner horses by an approved Trakehner stallion
out of an approved, ATA or NATA registered Trakehner mare with a documented pedigree
showing at least five generations of approved Trakehner horses and no more than one horse other
than a Trakehner, Thoroughbred, or Arabian, or crosses thereof, in the sixth generation and issued
numbered certificates by the Association. For purposes of definition of a purebred, a horse's parents
are considered the first generation, its grandparents the second generation, etc.
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« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 10:16:56 AM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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Joy
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Good question. I could almost understand them being eligible or PSB, by why OSB? Maybe when they were writing the rules, they were just plain tired. Committee work can be very hard to bear. 
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Joy
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Perhaps this thread really should be moved...
Christina, what is it exactly you disagree with? I believe stallions in every warmblood registry have to meet certain requirements to keep their licensing. The ATA's rules may be slightly different, but the principle is the same. With the small mare base we have, when you think about it, we actually have a lot of stallions to choose from.
One of the things I've always loved about the requirements for breeding is that you'll never find a licensed stallion passing on something like HYPP and the latest QH genetic fluke, because if something like that showed up, the stallion would immediately be barred from breeding, and any offspring with that genetic defect would be denied breeding status as well. A stallion that consistently produced second-rate foals, jugheaded, etc., would lose his licensing as well. Those are protections, and I, for one, like the whole premise upon which licensing is built; that only the best of the best will be approved and that there are certain requirements to keep that license. By definition, anything that has a license is a privilege, not a right, and an individual stallion has a much larger impact on the breed than a single mare.
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Joy
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I don't see a problem with annual licensing. Some other warmblood registries charge a fee for the mare as well. The OldNA, for example, charges (last time I was a member) $60 per mare bred in the breeding year and the foaling year. I don't know how much the stallion fee is, but I'm sure it's substantial.
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Joy
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You mean you don't pay taxes on your car every year?  What is registration but a tax? And if you're in the east, you're also paying an excise tax yearly as well as registration.
Stallion owners are getting perks for their fees, and the mare owners in other registries are also getting value. How do you propose to run the registry without fees?
(Gee, Ingrid, I love these little emoticons.)
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Joy
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Christina, you still haven't answered the question about how to run the registry without fees. The Trakehner breed is very small, and if it weren't for the private donations of a few dedicated members, we'd be in the red. When you have thousands of horses, like the AQHA, APHA, and AHA, you can get along well with smaller fees. In addition, there are no inspections. Anything can breed to anything, and the numbers grow, and the receipts grow with the numbers. When you have a smaller base, the fees must necessarily be larger. It's like making a die--the more you sell, the less the cost. The initial costs are in the original die. If you sell 10 or 100, the costs per run are very high. If you sell 100,000, the costs go way down.
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Kim Turner
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[
Another of the many mysteries...like why is foal by an approved Trakehner stallion out of almost ANY mare (OSB Trakehner, Clydesdale, Shetland Pony, or grade) eligible for the Official Registry Book, BUT a foal by an approved Trakehner stallion out of a purebred and ORB REGISTERED Trakehner mare that has not yet been inspected is only eligible for the Appendix Book? That means the only kids of ATA stallions that CAN'T be ORB are pure Trakehner...wild.
Ingrid,
I just read your post and now I am confused (what's new..).
I have a 10 month old Trakehner (I thought) filly by the
approved stallion High Knight out of a ORB registered Arab-Trakehner mare that has NOT been inspected (mostly because she foundered 3 years ago and we don't know if she would pass because of stiffness of gaits). From what I am reading above, the filly is only able to go into the Appendix book ?
I thought that I would be able to have the filly inspected for
inclusion into the PSB?
Oh my...
Thanks for any clarification,
Kim
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Tannenwald Trakehner
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If your mare is ORB-C, by my reading your mare is eligible for PSB:
ARTICLE V. PRELIMINARY STUD BOOK
...
§2. Mares registered in Division B or C of the Official Registry Book or Division B or C of the
Official Appendix Book of the ATA, or Division 5 or 6 of the General Registry Book of the NATA,
Thoroughbred mares registered by the Jockey Club, purebred Arabian mares registered by the
Arabian Horse Registry of America, Inc., the Canadian Arabian Horse Registry or the World
Arabian Organization, Anglo-Arab mares registered as such by the International Arabian Horse
Association or the Canadian Partbred-Arabian Registry, and Shagya-Arabian or Anglo-Shagya mares
registered in the stud book of an association that is a member of the Internationale Shagya-Araber
Gesellschaft e.V. (ISG = International Purebred Shagya-Arab Society, in the year in which they turn
three, or later, may be eligible for registration in the Preliminary Stud Book upon application to the
Registration Committee and personal inspection by the Inspection Committee.
She may be exempt from certain requirements because of her health issue, but she would have to be inspected anyway.
Even without the mare being PSB, it looks like your baby by an approved Trakehner out of the ORB-C mare should also be eligible in the ORB-C:
ARTICLE III. OFFICIAL REGISTRY BOOK
§1. The Official Registry Book of the Association shall consist of five divisions:
(A) Purebred Trakehner, composed of: Trakehner horses by an approved Trakehner stallion
out of an approved, ATA or NATA registered Trakehner mare with a documented pedigree
showing at least five generations of approved Trakehner horses and no more than one horse other
than a Trakehner, Thoroughbred, or Arabian, or crosses thereof, in the sixth generation and issued
numbered certificates by the Association. For purposes of definition of a purebred, a horse's parents
are considered the first generation, its grandparents the second generation, etc.
(B) Anglo-Trakehner, composed of: Anglo-Trakehner horses by an approved stallion of
Trakehner origin and out of a Thoroughbred mare registered with the Jockey Club, or an ATA or
NATA (Division 5) registered Anglo-Trakehner mare, and issued numbered certificates by the
Association.
(C) Arab-Trakehner, composed of: Arab-Trakehner horses by an approved Trakehner stallion
and out of an Arabian mare registered with the Arabian Horse Registry of America, Inc., or the
Canadian Arabian Horse Registry, or an Anglo-Arab mare registered as such with the International
Arabian Horse Association or the Canadian Partbred Arabian Registry, or a Shagya-Arabian mare or
an Anglo-Shagya mare registered in the stud book of an association that is a member of the
Internationale Shagya-Araber Gesellschaft e.V. (ISG = International Purebred Shagya-Arab Society)
or an ATA or NATA (Division 6) registered Arab-Trakehner mare and issued numbered certificates
by the Association.
(D) Part-Trakehner, composed of:
Part-Trakehner horses by an approved Trakehner stallion and out of a mare other than a
Trakehner, Thoroughbred or Arabian mare or an ATA or NATA (Division 4 or 7) registered Part-
Trakehner mare and issued numbered certificates by the Association.
(E) Imported Trakehner, consisting of:
Trakehner horses by an approved Trakehner stallion, out of an approved Trakehner mare,
(1) imported into the Western Hemisphere; and
(2) with papers establishing purity of breeding and an unbroken, properly authenticated
pedigree of five generations of approved or accepted Trakehner horses
If the filly is ORB-C, then the filly should also be eligible for PSB as is the mare. Hmm.
Compare this to a filly resulting when an approved Trak stallion is bred to a ORB-A Trakehner mare. The mare is ORB, not approved OSB, so the filly does not come under ORB-A. It also is not ORB-D, Part-Trakehner, because the mare is a Trakehner mare and therefore exluded from that section.
So still no place to register that filly. Maybe there is still hope (contrary to my previously stated interpretation), moving on to
ARTICLE IV. HORSES ELIGIBLE FOR INCLUSION IN THE OFFICIAL REGISTRY
BOOK
§1. Notwithstanding any of the provisions of Article III of these regulations, upon proper
compliance with these regulations, any person may register in the numbered section of the Official
Registry Book a stallion, mare or gelding that has an approved numbered Trakehner sire and a dam
recognized in one of the five divisions of the Official Registry Book set forth in Article III.
§2. Any horse registered pursuant to this Article shall receive a registration number without any
inspection for conformation or performance.
§3. Registration numbers shall be consecutive and assigned chronologically according to the earliest
completed application for registration.
That makes it look like the filly would be registered in ORB, but it clearly does not fit in any of the five sections. Is it possible to have an ORB number and not fit into those sections? It would seem such is the case. Anyone ever heard of it?
Assuming the filly (pure-Trak, by blood) could be put into ORB-? (or just "ORB"), she should be eligible for
ARTICLE VII. HORSES ELIGIBLE FOR INCLUSION IN THE OFFICIAL STUD
BOOK
§1. (a) In the year in which they turn three, or later, all purebred Trakehner fillies registered with the
Association in accordance with Articles III and IV of Part II of these regulations or in Division 1
of the General Registry Book of the NATA shall be granted approval as broodmares and included in
the Official Stud Book of the Association upon application to and the recommendation of the
Registration Committee and upon personal inspection by a member or members of the Inspection
Committee.
However, if that all works for a filly, apparently it would be a dead end if the filly were a colt, since section 3 of the OSB article requires the colt be by approved parents:
§3. (a) All Trakehner colts registered with the Association in accordance with Articles III and IV of
Part II of these regulations by an approved Trakehner stallion out of an approved Trakehner mare,
if intended as a breeding stallion, must be presented at the minimum age of two years, to an
inspection team selected by the Board of Trustees for the inspection and approval of the colt as a
breeding stallion. Upon approval thereof, the colt, if owned by an active member of the Association,
shall be eligible for transfer to the Official Stud Book of the Association and an appropriate
certificate of registration will be issued certifying the stallion as an approved breeding stallion of the
Association.
If I am mis-reading the Article IV business, the only other place for the filly to be registered would be OAB-A:
ARTICLE VIII. OFFICIAL APPENDIX BOOK
§1. The Official Appendix Book of the Association shall consist of five divisions:
(A) Purebred Trakehner Horses composed of:
(1) Horses by an approved Trakehner stallion out of a purebred Trakehner mare registered
in Division A or E of the Official Registry Book of the ATA or in Division 1 of the General
Registry Book of the NATA as well as their offspring by approved Trakehner stallions.
If Article IV does not apply to this filly, and she fell into OAB-A, she would have no possibility of getting into the OSB because the OSB does not offer eligibility to OAB-A mares (but OAB-B and OAB-C mares that are 7/8 Trakehner are eligible..hmm).
I am thinking, since the situation of the ATA stallion x ORB Trak mare is specifically addressed by OAB-A, Article IV must not apply to that situation. Why would there be a specific OAB-A book if the horses that qualify for it are already ORB eligible under Article IV? Why would someone pick OAB if ORB was a possibility? But it seems like the filly fits in Article IV...
So I don't know. To be honest, I have been reading these regs so much over the last couple of weeks that I have almost no idea of what they say any more. I even sent an email to Helen Gibble asking for help.
But it sure looks to me like your ATA stallion x ORB-C mare has more options than would an ATA stallion x ORB-A.
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« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 12:02:03 AM by Tannenwald Trakehner »
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JRR
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Sorry to dredge threads up from the past, but I have a few questions 
Did the anomaly that was identified in the regulations get sorted out? Are there subsequent regulations? And where would I find them?
If I breed my unapproved pure (ORB A) Trakehner mare to an unapproved TB stallion, which book do offspring go in? And can a filly (if the dam status changes) go into a book that allows her to be inspected and able to have breeding approval? (In this conversation, Ingrid's filly was out of an approved mare)
and also, what is an approved stallion of Trakehner origin? (As opposed to an approved Trakehner stallion)?
(B) Anglo-Trakehner, composed of: Anglo-Trakehner horses by an approved stallion of Trakehner origin and out of a Thoroughbred mare registered with the Jockey Club, or an ATA or NATA (Division 5) registered Anglo-Trakehner mare, and issued numbered certificates by the Association.
Is an Anglo Trakehner always a Trakehner stallion and a TB mare? Not the other way around?
And last but not least, would the ATA ever consider a stallion for approval that whilst Anglo-Trakehner by blood, is not JC, AHA or ATA registered but registered by say the KWPN, on performance results? Or is that a petition for the good of the breed?
thank you
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Juniper Ridge Ranch
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Just my humble opinon... I don't think a person should have to continue to pay annually to have the stallion or mare stay approved. Once approved should be always approved, no strings attatched, regardless of what every other Warmblood registry does. Remember the old saying, "If Johnny jumped off a bridge, would you too?" Just because someone else is doing it doesn't make it a good idea.
